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"correct" scope for unnumbered Zf41 mounts

mrfarb

mrfarb

No War Eagles For You!
Staff member
I have a late unnumbered mount, tan can, etc - typical of the late war unnumbered sets. It has a cxn Zf41 scope ser. 139561- what is the "correct" scope for these late unnumbered mounts? Were older scopes recycled and used on these late mount sets? Has someone collected data to understand what is typical for this series? I'm guessing these were used on the late byf44/45 Zf41 rifles. Pics to follow.


9f6804d0fb45f2ac41a206cc06632c82.jpg


c94043876ce160e71f5963a4b2095c51.jpg
 
zf41 late war

I would bet that the scopes could be any example manufactured in 1944 and into 1945.
Check Ken's site out as that one resource.
 
The scope is Type2 made around 1943, I guess.

From my opinion, those unnumbered mounts were never issued with the gun.
Can you shoot a gun without zeroing the scope? If you adjusted the scope, you have to keep it with the gun. And the adjustment was done by Waffenmeisters not the user. There is no reason not numbering the mount to keep them together, even if it is late war.
Also, I have several data of late (Type3) scopes with numbered mounts.
 
Also, from my observation, not so many ZF41s were made late 1944 to 1945, perhaps none.
And I believe old scopes were recycled and used.
I have a very early cxn Type1 regreased and added triangle mark later. It is possible the scope was used with a new rifle.
P1190010-2.jpg
 
"The unnumbered ZF41 mount was never issued with a K98k."
I am thinking this is logical.
Numbering the mount was not only a rule but essential.
Please let me hear your opinion if you do not agree.
 
Numbering zf41 mount

Hello Ken
I completely agree with you. Unnumbered zf41 mounts were not issued with a k98.
Regards
Xavier


QUOTE=kentomon;282458]"The unnumbered ZF41 mount was never issued with a K98k."
I am thinking this is logical.
Numbering the mount was not only a rule but essential.
Please let me hear your opinion if you do not agree.[/QUOTE]
 
"correct" scope for unnumbered Zf41 mounts

Can someone show a late scope with L block mount from a byf44 Zf41? There are a lot of these so there should be a mount to show as an example of how they were numbered.


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Byf44 zf41 L block

I have pictures of a k98 byf44 zf41 L block with the "sniper" acceptance proof on the rail. But unfortunately no the scope.
Best regards


mrfarb said:
Can someone show a late scope with L block mount from a byf44 Zf41? There are a lot of these so there should be a mount to show as an example of how they were numbered.


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Click to expand...
 
Byf44 zf41 K block

I have pictures of a k98 byf44 zf41 K block with the "sniper" acceptance proof on the rail. But unfortunately no the scope.
Best regards


mrfarb said:
Can someone show a late scope with K block mount from a byf44 Zf41? There are a lot of these so there should be a mount to show as an example of how they were numbered.


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Click to expand...
 
Ken,
I will disagree with you. And there are a few reasons why.

We know that in mid 1944 that the ZF41 was designated a non-sniper or marksman rifle, what ever you want to call it. Production seems to stop around this same point. However, then we see production begin again in the late K block but mostly L block of 1944. So at this point why are they making them again? Typically I completely agree with you that the Germans would never issue a sniper rifle without numbering the scope mount. But as I mentioned they already decreed that the ZF41 was not a sniper rifle. So possibly they chose not to number the mounts for this reason. By this point they were also not numbering rear sight components on regular rifles. What is the difference? I suspect that it was not to import to number the mounts anyways if everything is properly assembled (if that makes sense).

Another reason for my belief is that we have a considerable amount of these L block and byf45 no letter block ZF41 rifles and yet I have never seen a matching mount example. Some claim to have pictures but they could very easily be fake. So many of these late ZF41 (as I call them) are in minty, un-issued condition that we should find them fairly regularly with matching mounts, don't you think? Yet none. And Mauser would have never wasted their time putting the sight bases on rifles without the intent of using them.

Also, why so many un-numbered mounts? While these are late rifles they are not the final months late. As a comparison, finding un-numbered G/K43 mounts is tough because they did number them until the very end and the un-numbered ones were captured at the factory. That is because the K43 was still considered a sniper rifle.

I am certainly open to being wrong. However, based on the all the rifles I've seen, logic tells me that they stopped numbering the mounts. Good pictures of a legit late ZF41 with a legit numbered mount would blow my theory to pieces. So if someone has one then please post it. I hope this all makes sense. Great discussion.

And FYI Xavier, I have seen several late ZF41 rifles with a fake e/135 proof added to the sight base. Be careful. Very easy thing to add. And not sure I would call it a "sniper proof." More then likely a inspection proof to show that the base was properly assembled.
 
Yeah, I’ve never seen a legit late Mauser zf41 with a 135 inspection on the rear sight base. I have seen fake ones.


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Pictures

Hello
That is why I put the world sniper in quotation marks.
I am abroad at the moment. I will post pictures of my k98 zf41of 44k block with the inspection stamp on the rail.
You will be able to make your own opinion if it is fake or not.
Best regards
Xavier




mdarnell19 said:
Ken,
I will disagree with you. And there are a few reasons why.

We know that in mid 1944 that the ZF41 was designated a non-sniper or marksman rifle, what ever you want to call it. Production seems to stop around this same point. However, then we see production begin again in the late K block but mostly L block of 1944. So at this point why are they making them again? Typically I completely agree with you that the Germans would never issue a sniper rifle without numbering the scope mount. But as I mentioned they already decreed that the ZF41 was not a sniper rifle. So possibly they chose not to number the mounts for this reason. By this point they were also not numbering rear sight components on regular rifles. What is the difference? I suspect that it was not to import to number the mounts anyways if everything is properly assembled (if that makes sense).

Another reason for my belief is that we have a considerable amount of these L block and byf45 no letter block ZF41 rifles and yet I have never seen a matching mount example. Some claim to have pictures but they could very easily be fake. So many of these late ZF41 (as I call them) are in minty, un-issued condition that we should find them fairly regularly with matching mounts, don't you think? Yet none. And Mauser would have never wasted their time putting the sight bases on rifles without the intent of using them.

Also, why so many un-numbered mounts? While these are late rifles they are not the final months late. As a comparison, finding un-numbered G/K43 mounts is tough because they did number them until the very end and the un-numbered ones were captured at the factory. That is because the K43 was still considered a sniper rifle.

I am certainly open to being wrong. However, based on the all the rifles I've seen, logic tells me that they stopped numbering the mounts. Good pictures of a legit late ZF41 with a legit numbered mount would blow my theory to pieces. So if someone has one then please post it. I hope this all makes sense. Great discussion.

And FYI Xavier, I have seen several late ZF41 rifles with a fake e/135 proof added to the sight base. Be careful. Very easy thing to add. And not sure I would call it a "sniper proof." More then likely a inspection proof to show that the base was properly assembled.
Click to expand...
 
Xavier said:
Hello
That is why I put the world sniper in quotation marks.
I am abroad at the moment. I will post pictures of my k98 zf41of 44k block with the inspection stamp on the rail.
You will be able to make your own opinion if it is fake or not.
Best regards
Xavier
Click to expand...

Ok thanks. I look forward to the pictures.

Just to clarify, are you saying that if the base has an e/135 that it was fitted with a scope? The k blocks with the proof could be merely left over from earlier production. Thanks
 
Thanks for the link Xavier. As I mentioned, K blocks were likely using up left over sight bases from earlier. The e/135 on your rifle looks original and that sure helps. The e/135 is more then likely a proof from when the bases were made, not installed (if this makes sense). Much like G43 mounts have the inspection stamp on the before they were finished.

This rifle’s mount doesn’t really help because it doesn’t match the rifle. It could be from a 1943 K block rifle. We need to see a rifle with the original matching mount from the K or better yet L block 1944. A byf45 no letter block would help also.

Thanks!
 
Yes it makes sense to my.
But why duv and ar zf41 rail does not have an inspection stamp ( whatever it is) when they were made if the stamp was applied once the rail was produced and not once installated ?
Best regards


QUOTE=mdarnell19;282470]Thanks for the link Xavier. As I mentioned, K blocks were likely using up left over sight bases from earlier. The e/135 on your rifle looks original and that sure helps. The e/135 is more then likely a proof from when the bases were made, not installed (if this makes sense). Much like G43 mounts have the inspection stamp on the before they were finished.

This rifle’s mount doesn’t really help because it doesn’t match the rifle. It could be from a 1943 K block rifle. We need to see a rifle with the original matching mount from the K or better yet L block 1944. A byf45 no letter block would help also.

Thanks![/QUOTE]
 
I agree

mdarnell19 said:
Ken,
I will disagree with you. And there are a few reasons why.

We know that in mid 1944 that the ZF41 was designated a non-sniper or marksman rifle, what ever you want to call it. Production seems to stop around this same point. However, then we see production begin again in the late K block but mostly L block of 1944. So at this point why are they making them again? Typically I completely agree with you that the Germans would never issue a sniper rifle without numbering the scope mount. But as I mentioned they already decreed that the ZF41 was not a sniper rifle. So possibly they chose not to number the mounts for this reason. By this point they were also not numbering rear sight components on regular rifles. What is the difference? I suspect that it was not to import to number the mounts anyways if everything is properly assembled (if that makes sense).

Another reason for my belief is that we have a considerable amount of these L block and byf45 no letter block ZF41 rifles and yet I have never seen a matching mount example. Some claim to have pictures but they could very easily be fake. So many of these late ZF41 (as I call them) are in minty, un-issued condition that we should find them fairly regularly with matching mounts, don't you think? Yet none. And Mauser would have never wasted their time putting the sight bases on rifles without the intent of using them.

Also, why so many un-numbered mounts? While these are late rifles they are not the final months late. As a comparison, finding un-numbered G/K43 mounts is tough because they did number them until the very end and the un-numbered ones were captured at the factory. That is because the K43 was still considered a sniper rifle.

I am certainly open to being wrong. However, based on the all the rifles I've seen, logic tells me that they stopped numbering the mounts. Good pictures of a legit late ZF41 with a legit numbered mount would blow my theory to pieces. So if someone has one then please post it. I hope this all makes sense. Great discussion.

And FYI Xavier, I have seen several late ZF41 rifles with a fake e/135 proof added to the sight base. Be careful. Very easy thing to add. And not sure I would call it a "sniper proof." More then likely a inspection proof to show that the base was properly assembled.
Click to expand...

It is tough to prove either way. I remember a guy at the OGCA show years ago who brought in a minty byf 45 zf-41 that was dust covered. He didn't know what it was as his dad brought it back from the war. Lynn Lugar bought it. Mount was not numbered. Still it could have been put together in the factory after the war...

I can't imagine with the Germans so in need of any optically enhanced rifles that these mounts and scopes....which were available.. were not issued.
 
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That is a good point to consider. Each manufacturer might have made their own sight bases, or do we know for certain that Mauser made all the bases? If this is the case then BLM and Borsigwalde rifles shouldn’t have a Mauser proof in them.

So it is possible that the e/135 proof is not from when the base was made. It could still be from installation of the base to the rifle. Not the scope to the rifle.

So I ask what your opinion is of the L block and no letter block byf45 zf41 rifles. Did they all have matching mounts? If so, I’d love to see one. And if this is the case then why are they so hard to find? Makes sense that we would see more of them since we can easily find High turrets and Long Side Rails from 1945. And these were likely made in smaller numbers then the zf41s.

Another possibility is that no late zf41 rifles ever had a scope mount fitted to them. So then why did Mauser go through the extra time to fit the sight bases and cut a relief in the stock if they never intended to use them?

I can see the possibility that all these late rifles were captured at the factory waiting to be fitted with scope mounts that would have been numbered to the rifles. But that seems like a long time for a rifle to sit in a factory. Not sure if this is realistic.

Good discussion!
 
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