A sniper rifle so rare that it might start a controversy :)

[pgaplayerlss]

Hi Guys,

I am 1000% sure that it is postwar assembling

I am living in Brno in Czech republic, 50 miles far from Prerov Optikotechna plant
I have been checking all data in Zbrojovka Brno plant archive for couple months.
I am in contact with Military museum in Prague (VHU)
I discussed with my Friend who is one of the biggest experts for Czechoslavakia rifles of 20th Century
and:
1) Czechoslovakia army did not never use sniper pre WWII
2) There are not any records which can show us that some sniper troops had been exist.I confirm information from Amberg about Zeiss Norinab (look above).
3) Czechoslovakia army met sniper troops first time in Russia during WWII
4) After end of WWII they used captured G43, a lot of mount were made for G43 in Czech plant Strakonic( postwar) and they used Russians Mosin and Tokarev too
5) Scope is 1000% postwar hunting scope without doubts
6) mount is hunting mount
7) Transcription of Czech name Optikotechna(was use prewar and postwar) is different as Opticotechna which was use during WWII ( Germany language)
8) DC dow scopes we different than this is. Military scopes were marked dow+.
9) Zbrojovka Brno archive- there is not any records about production sniper rifles for Czech army pre WWII
maybe post war there were assembled some rifles and scopes from store parts (see Law book - DC- swp rifle)?!?! Cigarette rifle?

I am sorry but IMHO it is not WWII sniper rifle
I agree with all doubts above.
German converted Vz24 were renummbered incl. bands, trigger guards..
BR
Stan

There is LOT of bad information floating around.

1-2) The Zeiss sniper have not only been documented on paper by Czech historians, people also have in their possession the Czech marked scopes.

5) Serial number simply disproves the claims it's post war scope.

6) It would be expected that commercial rings of that period would be used for trial/proof rifles. Reinventing a wheel for prototype simply makes no sense.

7) I have yet to see any "OptiCotechna" marked scope, period and I seen a few. In my private conversation with Dave, his information which came from a guy in Czech that claims he worked a Optikotechna/Meopta made claimed that the way to tell post war from pre-war/war is that POSTWAR was "OPITCOTECHNA" while (pre)WAR was "OPTIKOTECHNA"


I'm so much contradicting information being put forth by so many knowledgeable members here it's clear I will have to do my own detail research.

 

[pgaplayerlss]

You've got it in your mind that it was in German use and all original and that Germans just slapped parts with random numbers on guns and that a vet put the ghn gas shield on, so despite signs that point to the contrary, I don't think anyone's going to convince you otherwise. I can't speak to the Czech side, but as I and others have said before Germans numbered parts to guns in their use, or at bare minimum crossed out old serial numbers and applied new ones.

Funny....I have genuine "battlefield" pick up K98 that my grand uncle picked up in 1945, when Germans stationed in his village deserted back to Germany when the Soviets were getting close. It has been in my family since.....95% matching with few smaller parts replaced....all those parts have the original "wrong" S/N and it's uncrossed.

Germans didn't always numbered/renumbered guns they captured and why would they? They captured to use then, not to send them back for full refurbishment and renumbering to make them pretty.

 

[Bigdibbs88]

Funny....I have genuine "battlefield" pick up K98 that my grand uncle picked up in 1945, when Germans stationed in his village deserted back to Germany when the Soviets were getting close. It has been in my family since.....95% matching with few smaller parts replaced....all those parts have the original "wrong" S/N and it's uncrossed.

Germans didn't always numbered/renumbered guns they captured and why would they? They captured to use then, not to send them back for full refurbishment and renumbering to make them pretty.

Dont we all. post some pics, I'm pretty skeptical of that. And if you mean one digit is off, I.e. a factory numbering error, that's not the same thing.

 

[pgaplayerlss]

Dont we all. post some pics, I'm pretty skeptical of that. And if you mean one digit is off, I.e. a factory numbering error, that's not the same thing.

I'll see if i can did up some pictures i took some time ago. I'm really not looking into opening up another can of worms about the authenticity of that K98. Speaking of worms, it was hidden in the attic for so long with hay and wood working tools that the wood worms for the stock too.

 

[mrfarb]

Well, after reviewing all the postings I have to agree. What you have is a one off (or maybe one of a few) rifles custom built by Czech craftsmen using off the shelf commercial hunting components, assembled on a Japanese contract VZ24 receiver, fitted with random scavenged German marked used parts throughout WW2 (some parts made as late as 1944) and other mixed VZ24 components. This rare sniper was adorned with stippling normally associated with hunting rifles, which was done as a test method of anti-glare finish on components that don't glare, while high gloss blue was left untouched for some reason on the commercial quality scope.

 

[pgaplayerlss]

Well, after reviewing all the postings I have to agree. What you have is a one off (or maybe one of a few) rifles custom built by Czech craftsmen using off the shelf commercial hunting components, assembled on a Japanese contract VZ24 receiver, fitted with random scavenged German marked used parts throughout WW2 (some parts made as late as 1944) and other mixed VZ24 components. This rare sniper was adorned with stippling normally associated with hunting rifles, which was done as a test method of anti-glare finish on components that don't glare, while high gloss blue was left untouched for some reason on the commercial quality scope.

Argument CAN be made it's a "cigarette rifle". But then the odds of that are simply staggering when you consider the details:

1) Less than 450 of these scopes were made before German occupation forced a switch to DOW/DOW+ markings on the scope and regardless they were all captured by Germans.
2) P-series VZ were all produced all circa 1937-1938 and vast majority were send off to Japan and China.
3) The mounts used are of Czech "commercial type" of the period, though none have been documented quite like this.

So with all that, you need the explain the EXTREMELY crazy odds that and extremely "rare" Czech pre-occupation scope that has no doubt seen German service just happens to end up at the same european gunsmith that also has an extremely rare P-series VZ24 (for the continent) that also just happens to be made circa 1937-1938 and also happened to be Germanized during it's service. And on top of all that, this gunsmith also need to have a set of Czech period correct scope rings and basses and at random also chose to use these.

There's simply gotta be some other connection....not necessarily being that is "all 100% authentic"....to lower those million to one odds of all these things coming together at random.

 

[pgaplayerlss]

Also here are some addition pictures of bonified "DOW +" marked, dial ranged scope with mount VERY similar to ones on this rifle. From looks of things these are original to the scope.

 

[Winchester Cowboy]

Funny....I have genuine "battlefield" pick up K98 that my grand uncle picked up in 1945, when Germans stationed in his village deserted back to Germany when the Soviets were getting close. It has been in my family since.....95% matching with few smaller parts replaced....all those parts have the original "wrong" S/N and it's uncrossed.

Germans didn't always numbered/renumbered guns they captured and why would they? They captured to use then, not to send them back for full refurbishment and renumbering to make them pretty.

What year and code is the battlefield pickup? We look forward to seeing the pics.

 

[RyanE]

A more likely scenario:

American gunsmith acquires P-series vz24 rifle, some German K98k/Gew98 parts, and a commercial post-war Czech DC scope with bases. Converts said parts into cool fantasy sniper rifle.

 

[pgaplayerlss]

What year and code is the battlefield pickup? We look forward to seeing the pics.

It's a 1938, code 237. I will not be posting it here. It would only serve as distraction. I will PM pictures to Bigdibbs88 since he raised the question of authenticity first. Hopefully he will chime in, confirm it and that's the end of that.

 

[pgaplayerlss]

A more likely scenario:

American gunsmith acquires P-series vz24 rifle, some German K98k/Gew98 parts, and a commercial post-war Czech DC scope with bases. Converts said parts into cool fantasy sniper rifle.

Only problem with that is the fact that the rifle was bought for a price of common refurbished Soviet PU sniper.

Non-import Japanses P-series VZ-24 with pristine bore alone would cost close to what was paid for this gun.

 

[pzjgr]

Only problem with that is the fact that the rifle was bought for a price of common refurbished Soviet PU sniper.

Non-import Japanses P-series VZ-24 with pristine bore alone would cost close to what was paid for this gun.

Well, that's not much of an argument...my guess is it was done back in the 40's/50's maybe 60's...back when no one wanted any of this stuff, and it was cheap. Whether it was done here or in Europe, it probably sat around until found in a closet by someone who didn't know better, and sold cheap. What its worth now bears no resemblance to what the sum of the parts were worth when it was made...

Again, until real evidence comes out, I stick with the post war put together of a very neat rifle...

ETA Oh, and very valuable pieces still float around for very little...A guy showed up with a Japanese Type 99 sniper minus the scope at our table...his asking price...$75. Plenty of people find this stuff and just think of it as junk....

 

[pgaplayerlss]

Well, that's not much of an argument...my guess is it was done back in the 40's/50's maybe 60's...back when no one wanted any of this stuff, and it was cheap. Whether it was done here or in Europe, it probably sat around until found in a closet by someone who didn't know better, and sold cheap. What its worth now bears no resemblance to what the sum of the parts were worth when it was made...

Again, until real evidence comes out, I stick with the post war put together of a very neat rifle...

Then you are back into playing the +million on one argument I mentioned previously. All these specifically extremely rare (by availability) items, by random, ended up at a smith who also by random managed to match up country of origins, and production periods perfectly. I know of no smiths, other than forgers, that ever care about historical detail/accuracy.

There's gotta be some other connection. Did you see the pics of the DOW+ marked occupation scope w/ similar mounts i just posted?

 

[pgaplayerlss]

Again, until real evidence comes out, I stick with the post war put together of a very neat rifle...

ETA Oh, and very valuable pieces still float around for very little...A guy showed up with a Japanese Type 99 sniper minus the scope at our table...his asking price...$75. Plenty of people find this stuff and just think of it as junk....

Yes, I agree. Hopefully some written documentation can be found. I know other picture evidence will not sway you guys much.

 

[Stana]

Argument CAN be made it's a "cigarette rifle". But then the odds of that are simply staggering when you consider the details:

1) Less than 450 of these scopes were made before German occupation forced a switch to DOW/DOW+ markings on the scope and regardless they were all captured by Germans.
2) P-series VZ were all produced all circa 1937-1938 and vast majority were send off to Japan and China.
3) The mounts used are of Czech "commercial type" of the period, though none have been documented quite like this.

So with all that, you need the explain the EXTREMELY crazy odds that and extremely "rare" Czech pre-occupation scope that has no doubt seen German service just happens to end up at the same european gunsmith that also has an extremely rare P-series VZ24 (for the continent) that also just happens to be made circa 1937-1938 and also happened to be Germanized during it's service. And on top of all that, this gunsmith also need to have a set of Czech period correct scope rings and basses and at random also chose to use these.

There's simply gotta be some other connection....not necessarily being that is "all 100% authentic"....to lower those million to one odds of all these things coming together at random.

Ad1) Sorry, but not truth.
No production of these type of scopes before occupation (or do you have some source for this information?)
Meopta made another types which was developed from Srb and Stys type scope

Have a look on first pics. That is First type of military DC dow scopes

2nd-4th pics. is 6 digits SN dow scope only for LSR!
5th pics is second type of DC dow scope
6th-7th pics is prewar Optikotechna developed from Srb and Stys scope
I am that guy from Czech who Dave mentioned you about

Your scope is Postwar for sure. I know this type very well. My friend is Gunsmith and he had many these scope in his hands.
In comparison with war time scopeer here are different lenses, recticle,
Here in Czech there are many very skinfull people who are able to assemble many different parts from war type scope, prewar and postwar and sell it on internet with guarancy that is wartime Items. They claim that there are not records about using scopes during WWII and all scopes with WaA and rust and ....are correct


Regards
Stan

 

[Winchester Cowboy]

Only problem with that is the fact that the rifle was bought for a price of common refurbished Soviet PU sniper.

Non-import Japanses P-series VZ-24 with pristine bore alone would cost close to what was paid for this gun.

I was in the same boat when a cheap price doesn't make sense with market price:

Great deals can be still be had and they are out there.

Out of an estate sale, someone who needs the cash, pawn shop, gun store and some people are just eager to sell for a rock bottom price to get rid of it and aren't interested in it.

I once bought a rifle for under 1K. It sat in the safe for a year then I researched it as I knew nothing about it. Turned out to be in the 20-25K range.

The ironic thing is I almost returned it for an exchange on another item. Glad I didn't.

 

[pgaplayerlss]

Ad1) Sorry, but not truth.
No production of these type of scopes before occupation (or do you have some source for this information?)
Meopta made another types which was developed from Srb and Stys type scope

Have a look on first pics. That is First type of military DC dow scopes

2nd-4th pics. is 6 digits SN dow scope only for LSR!
5th pics is second type of DC dow scope
6th-7th pics is prewar Optikotechna developed from Srb and Stys scope
I am that guy from Czech who Dave mentioned you about

Your scope is Postwar for sure. I know this type very well. My friend is Gunsmith and he had many these scope in his hands.
In comparison with war time scopeer here are different lenses, recticle,
Here in Czech there are many very skinfull people who are able to assemble many different parts from war type scope, prewar and postwar and sell it on internet with guarancy that is wartime Items. They claim that there are not records about using scopes during WWII and all scopes with WaA and rust and ....are correct


Regards
Stan

Stan,

serialni csila z produkce sli nahu, ne dolu. Zacinaly z ctir cislovym serialni cislem a sli dale. To je proc DOW and DOW+ puskoheldy maji vysoke penti cislove and sesti cislove serial cisla. Maz nejake fotky ktere ukazuji ze pres okupaci davali "oktiCotechna" an puskoheldy. Nidy jsem ani jeden nevidel na ketrykoliv puskoheldu.

Muj puskoheld byl prvnich stopadesat vyrobeno jak produkce zacala.


A ja vim o tech dalsich puskohledu.....mam jeden na mojem Rumunskem odstrelovaci protoze jeste jsem nenasel dobry IOR

 

[pgaplayerlss]

Optikotechna, from all the research and photo documentation i have, have kept their serial number sequncing the same since start of the production before occupation. It started with 4digit "24_____" and ended up in 6 digit "24_____" post war. All DOW and DOW+ marked scopes will fall into the 5-digit and 6-digit range. Further more, I have never seen an "Opticotechna" with a "C" marked scope.

Following are some quick pic documentation to illustrate the serial numbers.

Early, prior to occupation, production 4-digit:






Occupation period DOW/DOW+ marked, 6-digit:





Post-war "Optikotechna" marked, 6-digit:

 

[mrfarb]

Then you are back into playing the +million on one argument I mentioned previously. All these specifically extremely rare (by availability) items, by random, ended up at a smith who also by random managed to match up country of origins, and production periods perfectly. I know of no smiths, other than forgers, that ever care about historical detail/accuracy.

There's gotta be some other connection. Did you see the pics of the DOW+ marked occupation scope w/ similar mounts i just posted?

Actually, your logic works against you in this scenario. It's much more likely that this rifle was assembled postwar than pre-war. The one in a million odds are it's pre-war, the better odds are postwar, especially given the stippling applied to it. I do believe it was done in Europe and not the US based on the style of work. What are the odds a sporter was restocked and new bolt assembled to make it more VZ24 than sporter? Pics of stock serials?

 

[pgaplayerlss]

Well nobody can say for sure when the stippling was added. I was just being honest and say it looks like it was on there originally but who knows for sure...

Hopefully with time I will be able to find some written down documentation.