A sniper rifle so rare that it might start a controversy :)
- Thread starter pgaplayerlss
- Start date
One can only hope!
You are correct that G24(t) will lack serial numbers on most parts, but the bolt and stock would still be numbered. German modified vz24s will often have renumbered Czech parts or German made spares, but they didn't just start sticking random numbered parts on them. German depots would use salvaged parts during rework, and would often not bother renumbering or scrubbing the minor parts, but I don't see any depot acceptance anywhere. Major parts like the bolt and stock would be numbered by the depot. Don't see that either.
The stippling should be a clue. No military would bother with such a thing. Sorry, but it is almost certainly a post-war put together. Cool rifle, but not an original piece IMO.
pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
Stock has a number, but it's very lighting stamped (it's Germanized too). So does the bolt.
As for the texturing....if this was a proof/trial rifle like I imagine this is.....it's not outta question they would be willing to spit shine them a little bit.
Pics?
It is in fact almost completely out of the question. What purpose could the stippling possibly serve? The answer, of course, is absolutely none at all. So why would they bother? The answer is, of course, that they wouldn't.
pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
I will try to take some...i don't thing they will come out every clearly.
As for texturing....couple possibilities: 1) hide left over receiver markings. 2) Anti-glare/shine
The scope/mount not-withstanding, if someone sent me photos of that rifle I probably wouldn't make the "German used" connection with it. In fact, the ghn gas shield is pretty late war, like 44-45 production. I have quite a few reworked VZ24's, and generally they follow trends. If bolts get German marked armorers parts, they were numbered to match along with the rest of the rifles major components. Bolts were generally blued by the Germans, even if no other numbering was done, and I even have one that is straight Czech save for a blued bolt. The problem is, all of this parts swapping/bluing could easily be done postwar. I've seen my share of cigarette rifles as well, many have mixed/mismatched bolt components like this.
I will be the first to say I haven't seen it all, but I just don't see a German used VZ24 there, and the stippling is indicative of it being a sporter to me. Still, a neat rifle regardless.
I will be the first to say I haven't seen it all, but I just don't see a German used VZ24 there, and the stippling is indicative of it being a sporter to me. Still, a neat rifle regardless.
pzjgr
EOD - bombs and bullets
I'll agree, its a cool rifle, and obviously I would grab it up too if the price was reasonable.
Oddities...stippling being the big one, as far as I know never observed on any wartime German sniper, and I doubt any military would do that...as others stated, late war German parts wouldn't make sense on a pre-war made sniper.
Also as others have said, a German depot would have matched the numbers.
I am in the post war assembled/made camp...maybe a sort of "cigarette" gun made for a soldier, maybe something put together in the 50's in Germany...perhaps some sort of custom job for an officer....just don't think it was made by any military entity.
Usually when one gets into a whole boat load of "they could've, they might've, armorer assembled, field replacement, maybe's" it doesn't bode well. Field replacements by a low level Waffenmeister of one or two parts, sure....
The Germans tended to be pretty well, well, German, when it came to weapon refurbs. Lots of clues to show that's what it was...
I'd be happy with a cool rifle, and not try to make it something it probably isn't with a bunch of hypotheticals...If I am proven wrong, I'd happily admit it.
Oddities...stippling being the big one, as far as I know never observed on any wartime German sniper, and I doubt any military would do that...as others stated, late war German parts wouldn't make sense on a pre-war made sniper.
Also as others have said, a German depot would have matched the numbers.
I am in the post war assembled/made camp...maybe a sort of "cigarette" gun made for a soldier, maybe something put together in the 50's in Germany...perhaps some sort of custom job for an officer....just don't think it was made by any military entity.
Usually when one gets into a whole boat load of "they could've, they might've, armorer assembled, field replacement, maybe's" it doesn't bode well. Field replacements by a low level Waffenmeister of one or two parts, sure....
The Germans tended to be pretty well, well, German, when it came to weapon refurbs. Lots of clues to show that's what it was...
I'd be happy with a cool rifle, and not try to make it something it probably isn't with a bunch of hypotheticals...If I am proven wrong, I'd happily admit it.
pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
Bolt is blued BTW.
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pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
Strippling have been observed on sniper before to some degree. Here's just one example....not mine:
Germanized VZ's that were "captured" rarely/almost never show reumbering by Germans on the small parts.
One late war replacement part means very little.
pzjgr
EOD - bombs and bullets
As far as the stippling goes, I will defer to those who know much more than I do, but to me, it doesn't look like something a military armorer would do unless its on a custom type gun, or maybe an "award" gun...
But the late war replacement part is an anomaly, and add up enough anomalies, it adds up to a big question mark...
Again, I am just going with my gut, it'll be interesting to see some of the real experienced sniper collectors wade in...
pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
My speculation.....since we already know proof/trial czech sniper rifles existed......is that maybe the armorer/factory added some extra touches to it since it was a limited production batch to being with.
I'm reeeeeally hoping I can get someplace with VHU (Vojensky Historicky Ustav) or Meopta both of which I already reached out to.
Easily replaceable late war part (that's highly visible like bolt end) can be attributed quite plausibly to a GI swapping a part for one that's "prettier". Afterall, this rifle had to come back with somebody. GI's generally didn't care about historic correctness.
pzjgr
EOD - bombs and bullets
Well, that is the problem with "rare" or one-off rifles...unless someone can come up with hard evidence (ie pictures in a wartime manual/primary source material, period pics showing it, some sort of original documentation, etc) its all just speculation.
COULD be an ultra-rare trials gun, COULD just as easily be a post war put together, or even just a well done Bubba gun....who knows, and any opinion at this point is as valid as any other....
COULD be an ultra-rare trials gun, COULD just as easily be a post war put together, or even just a well done Bubba gun....who knows, and any opinion at this point is as valid as any other....
The Army Museum in Prague has an excellent collection and reference database, stuff that would blow your mind. Czech stuff, German stuff, etc. They were very helpful with my research, turning up stuff that I didn't know still existed. They should give a clear answer one way or the other.
pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
That's good to hear. Only bummer part is that right now their archives are being relocated and they might not have access to it. I seen their exhibit couple of times but never noticed anything sniper related, though I wasn't looking that closely. I should be in Prague in few months so maybe I'll stop by again.
Bigdibbs88
"Ach du lieber!"
You've got it in your mind that it was in German use and all original and that Germans just slapped parts with random numbers on guns and that a vet put the ghn gas shield on, so despite signs that point to the contrary, I don't think anyone's going to convince you otherwise. I can't speak to the Czech side, but as I and others have said before Germans numbered parts to guns in their use, or at bare minimum crossed out old serial numbers and applied new ones.
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I was forwarded some Pics of this Rifle and I have just had a chance to View them all . I would say that first thing I must Point out is 1. If this was a Military Sniper it would with out a Doubt have Range Markings on the Meter Dial (It Does Not) 2. WWII DOW Scopes were Marked with Serial and DOW and had Range Markings .The Serial Number on the Scope is a 5 Digit # in 24XXX Range but again this Particular Scope Marked in the way it is, it is NOT WWII Production . That fact can not be changed 3.The Rings are to the best of my knowledge POST WAR . 4.The Czech Logo OP Mark is same Logo as on Post War ZF4 Scopes . It is just my opinion from what I know of WWII DOW Scopes and what I see in reference to this Rifle and the Scope & Rings on this Rifle , I would be Doubtful it is of Military Origin .
I would also mention something that was brought to my attention as to the spelling of OPTIKOTECHNA or OPTICOTECHNA . I was told that depending on how the name is spelled whether with a C or K has to do specifically WAR TIME and GERMAN ASPECT of the Spelling as to the Take over of Czechoslovakia , but I can not which exact way it is . I will ask this Person as he is a member and see if he can also add to my comment and correct anything if need be . Best Regards
I would also mention something that was brought to my attention as to the spelling of OPTIKOTECHNA or OPTICOTECHNA . I was told that depending on how the name is spelled whether with a C or K has to do specifically WAR TIME and GERMAN ASPECT of the Spelling as to the Take over of Czechoslovakia , but I can not which exact way it is . I will ask this Person as he is a member and see if he can also add to my comment and correct anything if need be . Best Regards
Hi Guys,
I am 1000% sure that it is postwar assembling
I am living in Brno in Czech republic, 50 miles far from Prerov Optikotechna plant
I have been checking all data in Zbrojovka Brno plant archive for couple months.
I am in contact with Military museum in Prague (VHU)
I discussed with my Friend who is one of the biggest experts for Czechoslavakia rifles of 20th Century
and:
1) Czechoslovakia army did not never use sniper pre WWII
2) There are not any records which can show us that some sniper troops had been exist.I confirm information from Amberg about Zeiss Norinab (look above).
3) Czechoslovakia army met sniper troops first time in Russia during WWII
4) After end of WWII they used captured G43, a lot of mount were made for G43 in Czech plant Strakonic( postwar) and they used Russians Mosin and Tokarev too
5) Scope is 1000% postwar hunting scope without doubts
6) mount is hunting mount
7) Transcription of Czech name Optikotechna(was use prewar and postwar) is different as Opticotechna which was use during WWII ( Germany language)
8) DC dow scopes we different than this is. Military scopes were marked dow+.
9) Zbrojovka Brno archive- there is not any records about production sniper rifles for Czech army pre WWII
maybe post war there were assembled some rifles and scopes from store parts (see Law book - DC- swp rifle)?!?! Cigarette rifle?
I am sorry but IMHO it is not WWII sniper rifle
I agree with all doubts above.
German converted Vz24 were renummbered incl. bands, trigger guards..
BR
Stan
I am 1000% sure that it is postwar assembling
I am living in Brno in Czech republic, 50 miles far from Prerov Optikotechna plant
I have been checking all data in Zbrojovka Brno plant archive for couple months.
I am in contact with Military museum in Prague (VHU)
I discussed with my Friend who is one of the biggest experts for Czechoslavakia rifles of 20th Century
and:
1) Czechoslovakia army did not never use sniper pre WWII
2) There are not any records which can show us that some sniper troops had been exist.I confirm information from Amberg about Zeiss Norinab (look above).
3) Czechoslovakia army met sniper troops first time in Russia during WWII
4) After end of WWII they used captured G43, a lot of mount were made for G43 in Czech plant Strakonic( postwar) and they used Russians Mosin and Tokarev too
5) Scope is 1000% postwar hunting scope without doubts
6) mount is hunting mount
7) Transcription of Czech name Optikotechna(was use prewar and postwar) is different as Opticotechna which was use during WWII ( Germany language)
8) DC dow scopes we different than this is. Military scopes were marked dow+.
9) Zbrojovka Brno archive- there is not any records about production sniper rifles for Czech army pre WWII
maybe post war there were assembled some rifles and scopes from store parts (see Law book - DC- swp rifle)?!?! Cigarette rifle?
I am sorry but IMHO it is not WWII sniper rifle
I agree with all doubts above.
German converted Vz24 were renummbered incl. bands, trigger guards..
BR
Stan
pgaplayerlss
Banned once for douchebaggery
All records and research I have shows that DOW/DOW+ markings of the scope and along with range dials did not happen until some point AFTER German occupation of Czechoslovakia. Prior to that it had the Optikotechna roll mark was used.
In order for the scope to be post war it MUST have 6 digits S/N.
