Questionable SS Helmets

[M45]

I don't see any evidence that these were TR era at all; no documentation, no period photos, no eyewitnesses, found in places where a decal has no business, not found where they should be if period - re: numerous examples in various states of wear in and among factory decaled production. Similar to the Ed Strache Heer decal, they do not follow the general rules of TR decal application.

No one seems to remember these prior to the early '70s. If the crazy rumor is true that they were produced in New York in the early '70s and applied indiscriminately to helmets in the decades since, what we see today makes perfect sense. As I've been told, un-applied examples still on the backing/sheet are never seen. If these all came from one US source, this would make sense. This would be in contrast to multiple vets bringing home SS decals as booty and finding their way into the militaria supply chain via multiple sources.

An SS guru on WAF said that he thinks they are original, but only private purchase and only on NS M35 and hkp M42 helmets. That makes no sense, private purchase decals showing make and model patterns ?

 

[tjg79]

I don't see any evidence that these were TR era at all; no documentation, no period photos, no eyewitnesses, found in places where a decal has no business, not found where they should be if period - re: numerous examples in various states of wear in and among factory decaled production. Similar to the Ed Strache Heer decal, they do not follow the general rules of TR decal application.

No one seems to remember these prior to the early '70s. If the crazy rumor is true that they were produced in New York in the early '70s and applied indiscriminately to helmets in the decades since, what we see today makes perfect sense.

An SS guru on WAF said that he thinks they are original, but only private purchase and only on NS M35 and hkp M42 helmets. That makes no sense, private purchase decals showing make and model patterns ?

I think I read a description of a lid with these decals being a verified vet bring-back. That is either true or false. I'd like to know if there was a confirmed vet bring-back. It's getting very unlikely that can happen now.

I know of at least one prominent lid collector and lid book author that does authentications and he has authenticated lids with these decals.

 

[Hambone]

An SS guru on WAF said that he thinks they are original, but only private purchase and only on NS M35 and hkp M42 helmets. That makes no sense, private purchase decals showing make and model patterns ?

Some of those WAF gurus have butchered facts and the truth before. A "private purchase" SS helmet decal? That almost takes the prize for inane commentary, and would if they had not coined the term "exotic freshie". Like the "exotic freshie" term, "private purchase" is more akin to an excuse to justify an SS trinket which is not supported by facts and evidence, i.e., malarkey to support a fake.

 

[Hambone]

I think I read a description of a lid with these decals being a verified vet bring-back. That is either true or false. I'd like to know if there was a confirmed vet bring-back. It's getting very unlikely that can happen now.

I own the K98k that Gen. Patton captured and carried around in his staff car in Tunisia. This is true unless you can prove it false.

 

[M45]

I think I read a description of a lid with these decals being a verified vet bring-back. That is either true or false. I'd like to know if there was a confirmed vet bring-back. It's getting very unlikely that can happen now.

I know of at least one prominent lid collector and lid book author that does authentications and he has authenticated lids with these decals.

I'd like to see this 'vet bringback' champagne SS helmet. Probably an unissued CKL M42 (red flag) with slate gray paint (believed introduced in 1944) and a 1944 dated liner band. All factory decal application ceased in 1943. Probably why the SS guru said he thinks they are private purchase; a way to justify their existence while at the same time acknowledging that factory decal application had ceased by 1944.

 

[tjg79]

Okay, now onto Issue #1. Recent information has bubbled up that is very interesting with regard to SS decals. I am amazed at how well versed many of the advanced collectors are with the various nuances of SS decals. On a recent discussion on the German Helmet Walhalla, one of my helmets was discussed. The helmet is a later War CKL M1942 Waffen SS helmet with a lot number of 4956. The helmet has a Champagne Runic Decal that we typically see on the NS/SE (hkp) helmets. This decal was questioned by a few collectors as it is not the typical ET type 2nd Pattern Runic decal, therefore it 'may' be fake. When I initially sold this helmet several years ago, as part of my due diligence I sent the helmet to Kelly Hicks, author and expert, on the SS helmets. Kelly determined at the time that the helmet had a Champagne Runic decal. The helmet had also been in the possession of the family of the Veteran that brought the helmet back for 60+ years. So, my comfort level in the authenticity of the decal was 100%.

http://ww2germanhelmets.com/Blog-10.html

Anybody got a pic of the lid described?

 

[tjg79]

The feature helmet for the month of August [2013] is an outstanding example of an NS64 M-40 Chickenwire SS Helmet that I vet purchased at the Columbus Gun Show in the 1970s. I did a writeup on this helmet in "SS-Steel, Updated Edition" after I had returned to the States and had access to it again via the old collector I had traded it to. The helmet sat in my collection for years and to me was simply what an SS helmet was-- something that told a story. The veteran sold this to me for 240 dollars, along with a decent police Luger holster. As I was standing there at his table, he made a gesture toward his son and asked him if one last time, he wanted the helmet. The boy declined (fortunately!) and I took the helmet. The vet said he took straw out from behind the chickenwire before he came to the gun show (not the best news I could have heard). He also said he got the helmet during engagements with HJ Division in Normandy (he claimed he shot the wearer). When I got the helmet home, I discovered a hank of hair attached to a tiny bit of (skull) bone up inside the dome of the helmet. This was to me gruesome--it was obvious the liner and inside had been blood soaked and left as is. My mother saw this and ordered me to take the helmet out of the house and into the garage. This is what I recall in 2013 of that event that took place in 1975 or 4. The helmet was a birthday gift to a friend of mine, then it wound up in an advanced "closet" collection; then came back to me for a short while then went to a local advanced collector who enjoys it immensely. The shell is a dark Schiefergrau finish, with wide style Champagne rune (If you look in "SS-Steel, Updated Edition" you will see a chapter devoted to NS helmet characteristics and champagne rune variations--Also Quist Decal variations). Pictured below are a recent picture of the helmet; a 1970s picture of the helmet on my picnic table along with another champagne rune (M-42 --ckl I think)and some pages from SS-Steel discussing the NS decal variations and helmets they appear on.



http://www.ss-steel-inc.com/ss_steel_feature.htm

Here's another alleged champagne vet bring-back with chicken wire, story, and pic.

 

[M45]

NS M40's are mostly Heer with just a few Luft. We never see a pic of the other side of the helmet. Notice when it was purchased; 1970's.

It appears to be green/gray, so I'll say former Heer.

I see some suspicious, repetitive scratches on that decal. Ditto on the decals featured in the book.

I don't get warm fuzzies with the cluck wire either.

 

[tjg79]

NS M40's are mostly Heer with just a few Luft. We never see a pic of the other side of the helmet. Notice when it was purchased; 1970's.
It appears to be green/gray, so I'll say former Heer.

I see some suspicious, repetitive scratches on that decal.

Supposedly, we have a gun show purchase from the vet who shot the original lid owner, captured the lid, brought it back to the US and was then using his son as a shill to hawk his personal war trophies. It doesn't get better than that. Why would the kid not want his father's captured SS lid? Perhaps he's already got a garage full of SS lids captured by his father.

 

[tjg79]

The feature helmet for the month of December [2012] is an outstanding example of an EF66 M-42 helmet with classic Champagne Rune and cloth-dabbed camouflage finish. This helmet shows medium use and wear, but still retains a high amount of finish and decal on the exterior. EF produced about one-third of their M-42s with the "Champagne Rune" SS runic shield (the majority were EF pattern runes, with a lesser percentage of ET pattern decals used by the EF manufacturer).



http://www.ss-steel-inc.com/ss_steel_feature.htm

SS Champagne Rune with pics of both sides.

 

[M45]

Check out the SE M40 DD SS w/champagne runes (aka: the mock second pattern) in SS-Steel pp.158-159. The paint is listed as 'decidedly dark charcoal-gray' but it appears to be the rough texture blue-gray used by the Luftwaffe.
Page 258 informs us that there was some sanding preparation to the paint surface prior to application of the party shield. IMO, the sanding preparation removed remnants of a factory Luftwaffe decal.

M40 SD SS helmets made by SE are not found in the lot number lists.

 

[M45]

SS Champagne Rune with pics of both sides.

Note the contrived wear on the champagne rune. The lot number is probably higher than 3591, the highest known EF SS helmet. At this point, the camo is meaningless to me.

M42 EF64 3591 SD SS ZSH SM 43STRAP RTGG POCHER-SS (LAST KNOWN SD SS)

 

[tjg79]

It could be that over a third of SS lids are post war productions.

 

[M45]

Maybe closer to two-thirds.

 

[tjg79]

In my post #47, second picture of two champagne SS lids side by side, you can see a variation in the decal placement. Is that typical of factory work?

 

[M45]

Yes. Factory decal placement can vary greatly, with extremely titled examples seen. Many CKL M42 SD SS helmets have a strong backward tilt, as if the decal applicator was subconsciously lining up the rune's edges with vertical instead of the edge of the shield to vertical.

 

[tjg79]

Is it that there are no reported champagne SS lids mentioned by collectors in the 50s and 60s in articles, books, reports, etc...?

Wow, if that's the case. How many lid reference books will need serious revision? It could bust some lid dealers with lifetime guarantees of authenticity.

 

[M45]

I don't think there were many books, reports and articles specifically about TR helmets back in the '50s and '60s. I've heard that some of the early collectors don't remember seeing these back then.

Dealers will simply claim that they believe them to be authentic and see no reason for refunds. Many have time limits on refunds as well, 10 days for example. A customer suddenly not being happy years later is not going to cut it. Buyer beware. It is ultimately the buyer's responsibility to know what he is buying. If he doesn't, he should not be in the hobby.

Lid reference books have always had questionable pieces. I don't see that changing any time soon.

 

[M45]

I think I read a description of a lid with these decals being a verified vet bring-back. That is either true or false. I'd like to know if there was a confirmed vet bring-back. It's getting very unlikely that can happen now.

I know of at least one prominent lid collector and lid book author that does authentications and he has authenticated lids with these decals.

We all make mistakes. The main problem here is that dealers/collectors have become mesmerized with the champagne SS (its lines, its graphics, its colors, its beauty) and thus had always assumed it to be authentic. No one ever thought that lot numbers would have any bearing whatsoever. Also, all of these unissued champagne SS helmets did not seem to bother them either. Kind of a mass hysteria.

If you stop and think about it, most decaled helmets (1943 and before) had already been issued by war's end, and especially during the invasion of Germany (1945) when masses of people were being inducted into the armed forces or formed into paramilitary units to halt the allied advance. To think that loads of decaled SS helmets produced in 1943 would just be lying around unissued for a year and a half when there was such a need for helmets.

 

[M45]

Supposedly, we have a gun show purchase from the vet who shot the original lid owner, captured the lid, brought it back to the US and was then using his son as a shill to hawk his personal war trophies. It doesn't get better than that. Why would the kid not want his father's captured SS lid? Perhaps he's already got a garage full of SS lids captured by his father.

There are a lot of unverified stories floating around helmets. An interesting one I heard awhile back was about two helmets, an M40 and an M42, both no-decals that were captured together in a bunker after a firefight. Naturally, the two helmets were being sold as a pair with the story. What a neat story ! What a marketing tool ! How could it be disproved ?

One way. I had previously owned the M42 and had detailed photos. The random scratches and wear matched exactly. The liner was identical. During the time I had owned it, it had never been associated with the M40 and there never was any story associated with it.

Collectors can be suckers for stories. I hate to say that because I am a collector, but it's true.