WW1 Oberndorf Gew 98 Sniper Rifle Research

[308nutt]

The only Turkish Oberndorf sniper I've seen that still has its matching stock is the one in this discussion ..

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?298120-Question-on-a-Oberndorf-Gew-98-rifle

This rifle doesn't appear to have been through a Turkish refurbishment like most of the others. DocAV's information in the previous posting (above this) explains why it has a VZ bolt.

The stock with bolt cutout on my 1917 Oberndorf sniper, is a replacement Gew 98 'sniper' stock sourced in the US. The rifle arrived from Turkey with a mis-matched std Gew 98 beech stock (without a bolt cutout) that had been heavily sanded. It had also been filled around the recoil lug.

It appears from the examples showing up, that the 'n' block Gew 98 sniper rifles were made without the bolt cutout in the stocks. They may have been made this way to help speed up production time by not needing to take any std stocks off the production line for the added inletting operation for a few rifles. Oberndorf probably didn't make any bolt cutout stocks.

 

[Loewe]

Wolfgang, 2897, 3735 & 3781 all have matching stocks, 3735 doesn't show the area of the cutout, the other two do and they do not have a bolt cutout.

Re-Mauser making snipers, they did not, the entire contract went through Spandau before going to Turkey. According to Jon Speed, only rifles, bayonets and components (barrels) were part of the contract, no scoped rifles recorded. The contract began in March 1917 and consisted of numerous small orders through 1918.

If these were made into sniper rifles for the Turks, it would have been done at Spandau? Also, if they were intended for German soldiers in Turkey, the same would have to apply as Jon found nothing on scoped rifles in this period.

 

[308nutt]

If these were made into sniper rifles for the Turks, it would have been done at Spandau? Also, if they were intended for German soldiers in Turkey, the same would have to apply as Jon found nothing on scoped rifles in this period.

Is it possible that rifles were taken off the MO production line as the 'n' block series production was going through and accuracy tested. Then an unknown no. of the most accurate rifles had their bolts heat bent & were sent to an optical company to have their scopes fitted? This seems to be consistent with the most common held view on how the State Arsenal rifles were converted to snipers.

I'm going waayyy out a limb here - but the hole patterns of all the sniper examples seen so far, all have 2 in-line front holes/4 spaced rear holes, and look the same to me. Does this hole pattern suggest that ONLY the bases with slots for the offset rear mount could be used. See the bottom example in Senich's book (photo)? If that's the case, was there only one type of mount used on these bases? If yes - then from the size/type of mount likely to have fitted, we should be able to summise the brand of scope(s) used & be looking in those optical co's records for evidence of the rifle conversions????? Please correct me if my reasoning is wrong. I'm told that the mounts (pictured) and fitted to my rifle were originally equiped with Oigee or Gerard scopes.

 

[Amberg]

Is it possible that rifles were taken off the MO production line as the 'n' block series production was going through and accuracy tested. Then an unknown no. of the most accurate rifles had their bolts heat bent & were sent to an optical company to have their scopes fitted? This seems to be consistent with the most common held view on how the State Arsenal rifles were converted to snipers.

I'm going waayyy out a limb here - but the hole patterns of all the sniper examples seen so far, all have 2 in-line front holes/4 spaced rear holes, and look the same to me. Does this hole pattern suggest that ONLY the bases with slots for the offset rear mount could be used. See the bottom example in Senich's book (photo)? If that's the case, was there only one type of mount used on these bases? If yes - then from the size/type of mount likely to have fitted, we should be able to summise the brand of scope(s) used & be looking in those optical co's records for evidence of the rifle conversions????? Please correct me if my reasoning is wrong. I'm told that the mounts (pictured) and fitted to my rifle were originally equiped with Oigee or Gerard scopes.

The gun makers never converted their rifles into snipers themself. They sent the most accurate rifles to the optical companies, to have them converted there.
Why should Mauser send their rifles to Spandau first? They had access to the Orient Express railways at Stuttgart.

The shown bases/rings are the most probable for these rifles. But there is at least one other variation known, that must have had almost identical drill holes. It is an earlier variation for the offset Busch 2 3/4x scope.

OIGEE and Gerard did not use these rings exclusively, but are the most common. Voigtlaender and Busch used a different design.

attached photos show a late war OIGEE, and for comparison of the rings: Gerard (left), OIGEE (center) and Voigtlaender (right)

 

[Amberg]

9226n on display at the SOS.
No cutout, mismatched bolt.

 

[MrHaney]

1917 danzig sniper rifle

I just bought a 1917 Danzig sniper rifle. That looks the same as yours. The rifle is all matching except for t.he rear sight. The holes were pluged. 2 in line holes in front and 4 spaced holes in the rear. The receiver was reblued. Rifle is all matching excpet for the rear sight. the stock and bolt are matching as well as the stock comes with a original sling.
The serial number is 7632 block unknown at this time.
The stock disk is unit marked JR 146 12 K
I will send pictures and more infortmation later.
Regards
Bob

 

[Amberg]

unusual to find unit markings on a 1917 rifle. But some are known.

The IR146 was sent to Palestine in April/May 1918.
Pretty sure it will be in the "n" block
Very good find!

 

[MrHaney]

1917 sniper

Thank you Sir,

I will let you let known more about it when it comes.It nice to know the history of this rifle. Just think !!!
Best regards
Bob

 

[Amberg]

Bob,
does your rifle has a straight bolt?

At the Louisville SOS, I met a collector from Maryland, who got five IR146 marked rifles out of the Turk imports.

Need to find out, what happened to the scopes and bases. Unfortunately the military department of the Turkish embassy over here did not reply to my inquiry so far.
I'm pretty sure that our British friends destroyed them at the end of WWI.

 

[feldmütze]

I also met & have communicated with the collector at the SOS (he's from Pennsylvania) with the G98 sniper display. He sent me a photo of the rack of gewehrs from the 146th.

 

[MrHaney]

1917 danzig sniper rifle

Hi
The rifle has a bent bolt that is matching to the rifle. The only part that is not matching is the rear sight. The stock is matching with a cut out for the bolt.I am waiting for the rifle to be shipped to my dealer.
When she comes in i will take the rifle apart and take pictures of it.
I did not know that there were so many with the same unit matchings.
Were the other ones matching or miss matched ??
Regards
Bob

 

[Mr Haney]

Ww1 danzig sniper rifle

Hi
Here is a up date on my WW1 Gewehr danzig sniper rifle. It is the n block. The bolt is stamped with the bug type proof marks and on the side it have the serial number on it. I took it all apart. And here is what i foumd. First i am happy that it is not a import. The parts that do not match is the handguard it is a armors replacement, as well as the rear sight is not numberdand the floorplate. They only have the Greman proof marks.
I will add more pictures later.
Best Regards
Bob

 

[Mr Haney]

Pictures of my 1917 danzig sniper

Hi
Here are some pictures of the 1917 Danzig sniper I bought
regards
Bob

 

[cubrock]

I'll add one to the list:

1917 Oberndorf
SN 4648n
Navy Arms import from Turkey
Two plugged holes on the front receiver ring
Four unplugged holes in the rear receiver ring
All matching except bolt, which is an unnumbered replacement with straight handle and no Imperial marks
Matching stock is a standard GEW 98 stock with no cutout for a bent bolt

 

[Amberg]

Thanks!
can you please post some photos.
Wolfgang

 

[cubrock]

Thanks!
can you please post some photos.
Wolfgang

Wolfgang,

I'd be happy to, but I no longer own it.

 

[Amberg]

Thanks anyway!

next one that showed up over here: 6989n

deactivated!
All matching but bolt.

 

[Old_glass]

Quite a few years ago I purchased a 1918 "semi-turret" SSG which had the stock relief around the bolt knob. It went to well known collector in Germany who may still have it(?) ;-)

I believe Ion Idreiss, the Australian soldier and writer, mentions an encounter with a Turkish sniper who had a scope-sighted Gew98 (or Mauser of some kind). In the accounts of Trooper Sing's sniping it seems clear that some of his opponents had scope-sighted rifles. There are numerous accounts of snipers in the Gallipoli campaign, including some references to Turkish women snipers.

I see no reason why scope-sighted rifles would not have been supplied to the Turks if German requirements had been met; after all, the number of snipers or marksmen with scope-sighted rifles in German formations was presumably already established and the only way such requirements could increase would be through front-line losses, the wearing out of rifles in service, or the formation of new units which had to be equipped.

It is known that even in 1915, Germany was willing to supply large numbers of telescopic sights to the Allies in exchange for strategic materials, and it seems unlikely to me that this would have been offered if German military needs had not already been met.

I assume that German mobilization plans in 1914 anticipated very closely the number of formations that would be mobilized and their requirements for rifles of all kinds.

With the 15,000 or so(?) rifles collected from sportsmen in 1914/15, one would expect there to have been plenty of scope-sighted rifles available. Perhaps there were even more than were required, and this in part led to the allocation of such rifles to men who were not strictly speaking snipers, but more "company marksmen", if I remember correctly?

So, why would rifles not have been supplied to the Turks? They were supplied with more complex and expensive optical equipment and with rifles without scopes; what would have been the obstacle to also supplying scope-sighted rifles, if the supply was adequate?

It would make sense that the German detachments in Turkey would receive a greater number of SSG's than the normal issue, since such weapons were understood to provide a disproportionate power of defense compared to regular rifles, and a small formation naturally needs to use every such "force-multiplier" it can get. Also, were not those detachments considered to be specialist units, intended to provide skills and weapons that the Turks did not possess in sufficient quantities?

If those German detachments left Turkey after the Armistice, it would make perfect sense for them to leave their weapons behind, both strategically and logistically: they would have been turned over to a friendly power rather than possibly being destroyed or surrendered to the Allies.

 

[MrHaney]

Update 1917 danzig sniper. The fuffix is a e

HI
My thoughts on the suffix being a n was wrong. It is a e. One of the members was helpful in correcting the the suffix. I was lucky in finding the correct scope with original rings on it. and i have screws Now all i need is the off set front and rear bases witha lever. I hope that a member out ther can find them for me!!!
Best regardfs
Bob

 

[308nutt]

1917 Danzig Gew 98 sniper

Hi Bob,

Unfortunately the bases are the hardest part to find. But something will turn up.


Any more Oberndorf made Gew 98 sniper rifles anyone? Documents showing the number of Oberndorf made rifles that were converted into Scharfschutzen Gewehr 98's would be even better please!!!