Steyr-Daimler-Puch AG (660-bnz) Production

[Loewe]

Georg, I have not heard of the M.17/30, Sam did not mention it that I recall, have you a picture of one?

Yes, the Steyr-Solothurn manufactured for Columbia, - who seems the only country to have bought many. Though the catalog suggest the company tried to entice others to join them.. Although the company records are scant on the details of the arrangement between Steyr Werke and Solothurn, and Michael Heidler's article not much more revealing, it seems the M.12/34 was made at Steyr, probably a great deal more also, as one of the few facts regarding the relationship is that Creditanstalt had to write off the debt Solothurn owed SDP in 1938 when the Reichswerke bought them. It was a lot of money too, - maybe one day someone will dig up the story on Steyr-Solothurn, which is almost non-existent on the rifles, almost all the work done revolves around the machine guns and machine cannons. I guess because the rifles were not a commercial success.

Thanks CAR & BATA, the K.12/34 are popular here also, the 1939 are quite common here, though very expensive. The 1938's are rare, only seen two sold in 15 years, I do not think many noticed the date though as I recall the final prices were not that much higher than for a 1939, - this might be because no one has really written on the rifles here, Robert Jensen the only exception, I think an article for Present Arms many years ago, and one for the KCN-MRJ, which Peter Kuck revisited and made available for the public, - the estimate he came up with 20,000 for 1938, which i think is grossly inaccurate, but as it is the only figure in print, or easily available, maybe it has influenced prices on the rifles that have sold.

Paul, are you referring to the Steyr-Solothurn manufactured rifles for Colombia? Just to make sure I understood you correctly.

And are you aware of the M.17/30 rifle, the production sample that Steyr introduced 1930? This is a very interesting design, basically a hybrid between M.95 and Mauser action. It uses a turning bolt-action with a Mauser receiver, but still a clip and the magazine guard of the M.95 barrel and was chambered in the 8x56R caliber. The rifle was developed in 1930 by Steyr-Solothurn and was made due to the lack of reliability with M.95 and the stronger S caliber (8x56R). It was first designated as the "Muster 30", later called "Muster 17/30". Probably this rifle was also the ancestor of the Mudken Mauser rifle, as it's quite similar in design and they sold production facilities to to Asia. One of these rifles has been converted to a grenade shooting rifle, it's on exhibition in a museum in Amstetten/Niederösterreich, where it was also found. This rifle bears WaA534 and WaA280 markings..

 

[Absolut]

Hi Paul, the pictures attached are from an article in the Deutsche Waffenjournal 12/2004 magazine. It has been written by a friend of mine and a colleague of him. I assume the pictures of the rifle shown are from the book "Olson, Ludwig: Mauser Bolt Rifles" since they mention it as one of their sources (and the last one shows Austrian soldiers interwar, with the M.17/30 rifle on the ground). The grenade launcher rifle is also pictured, but it's a really bad estate and not that good of a sample when we're talking about bolt action rifles. And the next thing I'm going to do is to send Sam a link to this thread, maybe he'll join the discussion .

Regarding the Steyr-Solothurn, if you could specify your question a bit more, I'll ask my friends who are more knowledgeable on this topic than I will ever be.

€dit: get yourself a copy of this magazine, they covered the story on the Steyr-Solothurn --> http://www.shop.rwm-depesche.de/index.php?id_product=83&controller=product&id_lang=2

 

[BATANGUENO]

Hi Paul, the pictures attached are from an article in the Deutsche Waffenjournal 12/2004 magazine. It has been written by a friend of mine and a colleague of him. I assume the pictures of the rifle shown are from the book "Olson, Ludwig: Mauser Bolt Rifles" since they mention it as one of their sources (and the last one shows Austrian soldiers interwar, with the M.17/30 rifle on the ground). The grenade launcher rifle is also pictured, but it's a really bad estate and not that good of a sample when we're talking about bolt action rifles. And the next thing I'm going to do is to send Sam a link to this thread, maybe he'll join the discussion .

Regarding the Steyr-Solothurn, if you could specify your question a bit more, I'll ask my friends who are more knowledgeable on this topic than I will ever be.

€dit: get yourself a copy of this magazine, they covered the story on the Steyr-Solothurn --> http://www.shop.rwm-depesche.de/index.php?id_product=83&controller=product&id_lang=2

My God !This rifle 17/30 is really a family member of The Steyr-Solothurn Model 1929 who was made in two versions, one with the standard Mauser 98 action, and one with the Mauser M1918 action. The M1918 action was made postwar in China with Steyr engineering help,the rifle is better known as the Type 13, the "Mukden Mauser".

The 12/34 model referred more to the early model 1912 Mauser rifle made by Steyr for Colombia, but got some feautures of the second experimental rifle from Steyr Solothurn with the purely Mauser 98 action .

 

[Loewe]

What was the status of the rifle in 1938, with the Austrian Army? I do not see this rifle designation used in inventories? Was it used in number by the Army? (the report I have seen distinguishes German 7.92mm rifles from Austrian Mannlichers, several varieties, but all just designated the caliber as 8mm)

The link was interesting, I think I have seen that before, on ebay I believe, but they did not ship to the United States...

The questions I would have are essentially what was the arrangement between the association, specifically, what was actually made in Steyr and what was made in Switzerland. Michael Heidler and some books on machine guns seem to conflict on what was made in Steyr, some suggest machinery was leased at Steyr and production done there, some seem to suggest more was done in Switzerland, but I doubt this for a number of reasons. Heidler states, if not mistaken, that very little was done in Switzerland after Versailles and Saint-Germain were essentially dispensed with, but I suspect very little was actually done in Switzerland from the beginning. Naturally, I am not so much interested in the machine guns, as much as the rifles, which almost nothing exists in English that is reliable. (luckily there is little to know, as so few were made or sold apparently).

I would also be curious about the relationship between Rheinmetall, Steyr-Werke and Solothurn, Michael Heidler does go into the relationship, but he seems unsure of many things, and the company reports barely mention the affair, other than financially. Michael Heidler's article does bring a lot together that is potentially interesting, the role of Fritz Mandl and Paul Götzl (Steyr-Werke's & SDP General manager until 1938, - a Jew, who survived it all, I suppose in Switzerland?).. anyway, I could spend an hour writing down all the questions, but basically my interests are in the companies and personalities more than the rifles, always have been, though I like the M.12/34 too.

 

[Loewe]

Didn't Stan Zielinski write up something on the subject? I will have to check on this, but it sounds familiar.

Yes, correct, the M.12/34 is directly related to the M.1912, modified (with improvements based upon experience in WWI) in 1934 for contract sales. Fortunately the catalog text is actually in English, so I intend on using it in its entirely for the MRJ series. Though I might have to make it a stand alone because it would be several pages.

My God !This rifle 17/30 is really a family member of The Steyr-Solothurn Model 1929 who was made in two versions, one with the standard Mauser 98 action, and one with the Mauser M1918 action. The M1918 action was made postwar in China with Steyr engineering help,the rifle is better known as the Type 13, the "Mukden Mauser".

The 12/34 model referred more to the early model 1912 Mauser rifle made by Steyr for Colombia, but got some feautures of the second experimental rifle from Steyr Solothurn with the purely Mauser 98 action .

 

[pzjgr]

Awesome article Paul, as always! Very interesting stuff there.

My bolt mismatch 1939 "a" block is one of my favorites, even with it being a m/m....and even though she has been well used, and has almost no finish, the workmanship on the metal and wood is really quality.

I'd really love to run into a G29o at some point...never even seen one in the wild, just pics....

 

[Loewe]

Mike, Your 660/39 is about as nice as they get, - only one is for sure matching-original, though I'm sure others exist (some are hard to tell and might be mostly matching). The rc rate on the 660/39 is very high, 19 out of 29, yours has the distinction of being mostly original, believe me that it would be worth quite a bit if you parted with it, as very few are out there in a similar or better condition. (and many like SDP, it has to be one of the top makers collected...)

Just by comparison, I have recorded more than 100 K.12/34, about 130 actually, whereas only 29 660/39's are known, most rc, so that might give you some perspective on rarity between the two. As to value, the K.12/34 probably would pull more than a decent 660/39, though it shouldn't, but I do not think most quite realize how rare a 660/39 really is, - in matching-original or close to matching-original condition.

 

[KDF82]

Thanks M202, KDF, - I went through a G43 phase myself, mid-1980's mostly, back then they kind of sucked, no spring kits and if they fired you were lucky... broke parts too... all the guys I knew were into the Garand and made the most of the lousy showing, - "no wonder the krauts lost, etc..."

V.III is a good book, but you need them all! Personally I like V.I most, naturally, but I am sure V.II will be better than ever. It seems things get better with practice!

You're welcome and I remember the age before spring kits very well! All my friends with Garands gave me the same trouble. They'd shut up when I'd bag as much game with my BNZ 4 as they would with their 22's and mini 14s...

 

[Absolut]

Paul, did you also record this one with the matching muzzle cap -> http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm68.pl?f=NR_LOT&c=1076&t=temartic_S_D&db=kat68_s.txt

Regarding your question, I'll speak on this with the friends of mine. And buy yourself a copy of the linked RWM Depsche, they cover the story of Steyr-Solothurn cooperation there.

Regarding the M.17/30 rifle, it was only a trials rifle which was made due to problems with the 8x56R caliber in the M.95 rifle. I therefore assume not more than a few thousand were ever produced. Obviously not successful, since they continued to convert M.95 rifles to 8x56R caliber, even up to 1938. I am not sure, but I believe they also tried the M.17/30 as a sniper rifle, need to dig through my war archive material.

Austria did not use German 8x57IS caliber rifles. However, there were drawings for rifles at Steyr during WWI, so they probably considered switching over to 8x57IS already during or prior to WWI.

 

[Absolut]

Paul, after making some phonecalls you'd probably call it funny that the guy I talked with was just typing an e-mail to Stanley Zielinski regarding exactly this topic. To shortly summarize it:
- According to him EVERYTHING which "Steyr-Solothurn" produced was done at Steyr, including the rifles made for Colombia. Asking for his opinion, he said that he believes that these rifles based on the design of the Steyr M1912 Mauser rifles in 7x57 caliber, which were adopted in (or seized by, but adopted sounds more friendly ;-) ) the Austrian Army with the M.14 designation.
- There was also a M.15 design at Steyr developed, which was basically a Steyr-Mannlicher rifle, but in 8x57IS caliber. Three of these rifles are in the collection of the Heeresgeschichtliche Museum in Vienna. Just recently the blueprints of those rifles were found, they date to 1915.
- The M.17/30 rifle he believes was based on a M.17 design, which so far is unknown. He believes it was the same design as shown on my pictures of the M.17/30 rifle, but in 8x50R caliber which was updated to the 8x56R caliber in 1930. There is only one rifle every advanced collector I've asked is aware of - the other known piece is the converted grenade launcher rifle. So probably only a trial rifle. What is an interesting technical fact, is that the M.17/30 rifle has a firing pin spring which is not wrapped around the firing pin, but one like the Mudken-Mauser.

€dit: got it. Dug in my Kriegsarchiv files. On 13th of December 1935 they requested the M.17/30 rifles to be used as sniper rifles, re-requested an answer on 9th of January 1936. The answer was sent on 28th of January 1936 and was basically that they have 290 M.17/30 rifles in stock (at the Waffenhauptdepot), 1/3 of the total of sniper rifles requested - and that they have no money to purchase additional M.17/30 rifles. However, on 4th March 1936 they requested the Staatsfabrik to produce four M.17/30 and M.95 rifles (already in 8x56R) each already with the newly designed sniper mount.

 

[BATANGUENO]

Didn't Stan Zielinski write up something on the subject? I will have to check on this, but it sounds familiar.

Yes, correct, the M.12/34 is directly related to the M.1912, modified (with improvements based upon experience in WWI) in 1934 for contract sales. Fortunately the catalog text is actually in English, so I intend on using it in its entirely for the MRJ series. Though I might have to make it a stand alone because it would be several pages.

Hi Loewe,

Don't know that Stan.... but i know the history of Solothurn and his guns....founded in 1914 by two people who made first watches... before they where calling the firm " AG Moderna" a small department was making parts in the first world war for ammunition......this firm closing the gates after the defeat in the first war ,bankrupt in 1922 .The "Solothurner volksbank"who has put money in this firm was taking over by the"Sweizerischen Volksbank".The firm was not closed and a new name was put up as the "patronenfabrik Solothurn AG" the new director was someone of the Berlin Karlsruher Metallwarenfabrik......They where making ammunition for many Army's (The Switsers,Turkye,the Balkan country's and others)The factory got many rivals for the delivery of catridges to those army's . FN Belgium and other big arm factory's where there rivals .
In the middle of the 20's was the director of the plant Fritz Mantel ,he got already many connections (came from the Hirtenberger amminution plant) with other arms factory's as "Reihnmetall" Borsig and Steyr and he braught ,together with the leave of the forbidding to produce arms by the allied nations in 1929 in Germany and Austria, Maschines and people from FN, Steyr and special machinery from Switserland.They want to make and develope their own Arms .....Many old Techinicians came from the old factory (OWG) from Steyr in Austria and this was the connection for making those rifles like the 12/34 and the Mukden rifle .It was a small part of the market but their guns and munition was very high priced by other country's. regards batangueno

 

[Loewe]

Georg, Yes, I recorded that one on H-H, I try to keep up on there sales, as they come across a great many unusual rifles, but I am sure i have missed some. I will get a copy one day, as the opportunity arise, it looks pretty interesting.

As I recall, the inventories of Austrian weapons in 1938 included quite a few German 7.92mm rifles, probably G98 & K98's, but maybe some 88's but they didn't distinguish by models. Maybe stores taken from the communists and national socialists when they cracked down on the organizations... both would have been armed with German rifles as German arms were smuggled into Austria after WWI.

Fascinating story the M.17/30, I do not think I have read anything about it, though Sam might have written about it and i overlooked it. As for Stan, I haven't spoken with him in some time, his MRJ came back though, so he has moved recently. Many thanks for your details on Steyr-Solothurn, I will save this and use it when i deal with the M.12/34 in detail!

Thanks to you also Batangueno!

Paul, did you also record this one with the matching muzzle cap -> http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm68.pl?f=NR_LOT&c=1076&t=temartic_S_D&db=kat68_s.txt

Regarding your question, I'll speak on this with the friends of mine. And buy yourself a copy of the linked RWM Depsche, they cover the story of Steyr-Solothurn cooperation there.

Regarding the M.17/30 rifle, it was only a trials rifle which was made due to problems with the 8x56R caliber in the M.95 rifle. I therefore assume not more than a few thousand were ever produced. Obviously not successful, since they continued to convert M.95 rifles to 8x56R caliber, even up to 1938. I am not sure, but I believe they also tried the M.17/30 as a sniper rifle, need to dig through my war archive material.

Austria did not use German 8x57IS caliber rifles. However, there were drawings for rifles at Steyr during WWI, so they probably considered switching over to 8x57IS already during or prior to WWI.

 

[BATANGUENO]

connection with Switserland...

The connection with Switserland........

It was forbidden in the 20's for Steyr to produce guns so they made trucks and cars.... What they did was very simply ,put their weapon technicians with Steyr Solothurn AG ,the register and the headquarter of the firm was registrated in Zurich in Switserland .... So Steyr was still involved with the weapon busness and the new developments of arms , without anyone can't punish them for not following the rules of the disarmement after the first War..
Thats why both firms Steyr Daimler Puch and Steyr Solothurn AG where very close related with their arms productions and new models in the 1930's.What they can't prove untill today....(but its a fact on my opinion it has happen!) is the later cooperation, by those factory's , during the Second Worldwar on parts produced for the production for the Mauser K 98's by Solothurn and Rheinmetall plants in Switserland who where later assembled together in Steyr....

 

[Absolut]

Paul, where did you find the inventories from Austria in 1938? And which date do they exactly have? Just to check with my files.

I would consider it quite possible that the G.29ö (or whatever you call it) also originates from the M.15 rifle, which is - as already said - a M1912 rifle in 8x57IS caliber, developed in 1915. But from 1918 to 1938 the gun production in Austria is anyway confusing, and especially in the last few years.. However, some small details are noted. Did you know that the Bundeskanzleramt had two M.95 sniper rifles? And that the serials of quite a lot of trial snipers were logged.

 

[Loewe]

It was in a article on the Anschluss, the article is in English, but the appendices were German language reports and maps, one lists the weapons inventoried in March 1938. I will send you a copy, though you might have seen it already, - I think John Wall commented about it on Gunboards awhile back. I found it when i did my article for MS & BK in V.III.

I call the rifle M.12/34 or K.12/34, and have since Bruce first posted the production statistics Jon Speed found (it was on this forum several years ago and I mentioned this then, later Wolfgang interpreted the documents further for me, - as you and he are friends, you might get with him on this, he has done some research in the archives regarding SDP after i pestered him for more information..); especially since Wolfgang discovered further confirmation. I only use G29ö to aid in identification for those unfamiliar with the research uncovered by Jon Speed/BK and Wolfgang.

Jon Speed's company catalog specifically states the M.12/34 origins are the M/1912, improved by experiences in WWI. Though I do not doubt that other rifles had an influence.

I know very little about Mannlicher's, I tend to "parrot" Sam Newland and John Wall when I need to sound like I know what I am speaking about regarding them. Sam Newlands articles, available in pdf, go into detail regarding the step-by-step developments, - I only gave scant mention to the rifles in the article I wrote (as the focus was the Modell98, and part I was designed for context), deciding to just mention Sam's work for those interested in following up on his research. I generally do not like to parrot others, I felt it best to just be brief, mention other researchers work, and go to the purpose of the article.

Paul, where did you find the inventories from Austria in 1938? And which date do they exactly have? Just to check with my files.

I would consider it quite possible that the G.29ö (or whatever you call it) also originates from the M.15 rifle, which is - as already said - a M1912 rifle in 8x57IS caliber, developed in 1915. But from 1918 to 1938 the gun production in Austria is anyway confusing, and especially in the last few years.. However, some small details are noted. Did you know that the Bundeskanzleramt had two M.95 sniper rifles? And that the serials of quite a lot of trial snipers were logged.

 

[Loewe]

1940 has been added, in full on the MRJ website, in part here, - in a few days I will add the full text on post 1. The purpose of doing posts here is to get page views on the websites and subscribers to the blog...

 

[Loewe]

1941 will be up tomorrow, but i need a top receiver shot of a bnz/41 first... Rob was good enough to allow us to use shots from his collection, but lacks a bnz/41. Tomorrow, i will add the 1940 text to the first post also.

 

[mike webb]

Hi Loewe,
Here are a few pics of my BNZ 41.
It is a Russian capture but markings are all intact with the addition of a small Russian X.
What is with the little star on the barrel shank? Sorry about the photo quality.

 

[Loewe]

Thanks Mike for posting the pictures, - the star is probably some in-house marking, possible related to the "asterisk" marking or the 'WR' marking Mauser used. Possible some sort of correction for that stage of assembly the acceptance represents.

While it does resemble Böhler's trademark, a 6-pointed star, much like the Jewish Star of David, this is an 8-pointed star and shows up on other barrel blank providers (Dö, RD, etc...). It also varies to application, though usually next to the second acceptance stamp on the barrel. Not sure which step that is without looking it up, but I am pretty sure it is just a correction of some sort.

I generally do not trend this feature though, so although I know it is extremely common, I am not sure how universal it is. (I would say more have this star than do not)

 

[martas_v]

Hi,
here are a few pics of my 660 from 1939: