RyanE and Lugers
- Thread starter Hambone
- Start date
Hand waving away the issue is the problem.
And claiming that earlier guns are more mixed up than the later ones is simply not credible. Not only are there 1940s and 1944s mixed together throughout the 11200 range, there are 1940s and 1944s with sequential serial numbers. You have to believe that HK randomly skipped over serial numbers for no apparent reason and then went back and filled them in years later. Its completely insane.
I'm not sure I know what you are referring to exactly, but the BAL2 acceptance was used on lots of stuff. Flare guns are probably the most common thing you find them on along with MG15. I don't know if one can determine if these are the exact same dies when they are undamaged.
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1933 FORD NUT
Well-known member
To the troops - Look at the complete list in Gibsons book and form your own opinions.
I was not there. Were you?
What is for sure to me is "something" happened, and it was there all along.
I do not dwell on it- just look at the gun.
SEE BOTTOM OF POST.
I would suggest you do not get into collecting high end coins or Knights Crosses reading part two.
Speaking of red flags- 1944 11633 sure is pretty.
Nice uniform dark blue and nice grips.
Fine in 1937 but not 1944.
Well not the uniform blue part.
Does not look like an old Ralph hack job to me.
Have not had it in hand but it looks like a newer creation.
Have you not said these were faked in the 40's and 50's on numerous occasions?
Mostly from the missing "600" cigarette guns?
Simple question,
What do you have after you verify an example has all HK parts, has no welded- ground areas or added markings and has all factory finish?
Not hard to do with these BTW.
I was not there. Were you?
What is for sure to me is "something" happened, and it was there all along.
I do not dwell on it- just look at the gun.
SEE BOTTOM OF POST.
I would suggest you do not get into collecting high end coins or Knights Crosses reading part two.
Speaking of red flags- 1944 11633 sure is pretty.
Nice uniform dark blue and nice grips.
Fine in 1937 but not 1944.
Well not the uniform blue part.
Does not look like an old Ralph hack job to me.
Have not had it in hand but it looks like a newer creation.
Have you not said these were faked in the 40's and 50's on numerous occasions?
Mostly from the missing "600" cigarette guns?
Simple question,
What do you have after you verify an example has all HK parts, has no welded- ground areas or added markings and has all factory finish?
Not hard to do with these BTW.
1933 FORD NUT
Well-known member
Looked and 1944 11633 is listed in Gibson in general list but not by year list????
1933 FORD NUT
Well-known member
Going to withdraw this.
Sure looks like another one of the modern "freshen up" jobs.
Would want in- hand with this.
Pics are worthless for what you want to see on these.
Another point is it along with 1944 11921 were left off the year by year list.
Just like "1941" 11278 was.
I do not think these were accident left off.
Just like the "somewhere else" was no accident.
NOBODY at that time was calling the late war guns fake.
Seriously doubt this is a 1944 mag.
Sure looks like another one of the modern "freshen up" jobs.
Would want in- hand with this.
Pics are worthless for what you want to see on these.
Another point is it along with 1944 11921 were left off the year by year list.
Just like "1941" 11278 was.
I do not think these were accident left off.
Just like the "somewhere else" was no accident.
NOBODY at that time was calling the late war guns fake.
FOR SURE a total refinish at least.
Seriously doubt this is a 1944 mag.
1933 FORD NUT
Well-known member
Pics of Gibsons year by year serial lists.
Form your own opinions but note wide spreads
Form your own opinions but note wide spreads
This is an odd standard to apply to this magazine when 11281 (1940) and 11282 (1944) both exist. Why can't a 1944 exist in the 11900 range? Krieghoff was just pulling SNs out of hat, so why not?
Serial lists taken from a book put together in the late 1970s should probably not be taken at face value. I doubt Gibson saw even a quarter of those guns. I can say with absolute certainty that there is no legit 1940 in the 3000 range, and its likely there are no legit ones below 10000.
I don't like it when books include lists like this. People tend to think everything on it has been vetted when they never are.
1933 FORD NUT
Well-known member
Not odd to me at all.
Not aware of any HONEST 1944 guns that do not have the totally unmarked type mags.
Have seen a few with electro- penciled 3 digit serials on back spine.
Could be right but to me it is after the fact stuff.
Pretty hard to check electro- pencil markings for authenticity.
Must have been a big hat as I see small groups of serials all over the list.
On your "sequential" objection is it possible there are other cases of this when you have overlapping serials??
It is not mucked up with all the crap that started coming along when folks other than a few hard-core collectors started seriously chasing these.
Gibson's book had a lot to do with that.
Is it remotely possible a 3,000 range gun that was not finished somehow got set aside- misplaced for whatever reason and found its way back inline later?
I was not able to afford one until the 90's and got fried on number one.
That got my UNDIVIDED attention, and the serious student thing went into overdrive.
That has not changed.
Randall would tolerate my phone calls and was a big help after he saw I was not an idiot and was very serious.
The "somewhere else" paragraph and leaving "11278" out of the yearly list are no surprise to me.
Look at his personal guns in his book.
Then look at Ralphs butcher job of 11278.
He did not get stuff from Ralph.
Randall never revised his book but was taking notes.
Whomever has them now will find stuff from me in there.
Lee Kelser was PRICELESS help to the "kid with all the questions" and showed me things on wartime guns on several occasions in person at NAPCA deals in KC .
Trial and error on them would have been a disaster and thanks bud and R.I.P
Those guys were not idiots nor fools and had the privilege of collecting in the heyday of "out of the woodwork" guns.
This battle is not about me or mine- I can fend for myself on HK's.
It is For Lee and Randall and Don and Richard C AND the troops that should hear the TRUTH about these.
They really are the easiest of all to pick bad apples out of and they are NOT like other lugers in many ways.
Fingers are sore and the BOSS needs some of my time.
I await return fire.
Not aware of any HONEST 1944 guns that do not have the totally unmarked type mags.
Have seen a few with electro- penciled 3 digit serials on back spine.
Could be right but to me it is after the fact stuff.
Pretty hard to check electro- pencil markings for authenticity.
Must have been a big hat as I see small groups of serials all over the list.
On your "sequential" objection is it possible there are other cases of this when you have overlapping serials??
I consider this list to be the BEST for many reasons.
It is not mucked up with all the crap that started coming along when folks other than a few hard-core collectors started seriously chasing these.
Gibson's book had a lot to do with that.
Is it remotely possible a 3,000 range gun that was not finished somehow got set aside- misplaced for whatever reason and found its way back inline later?
I was not able to afford one until the 90's and got fried on number one.
That got my UNDIVIDED attention, and the serious student thing went into overdrive.
That has not changed.
Randall would tolerate my phone calls and was a big help after he saw I was not an idiot and was very serious.
The "somewhere else" paragraph and leaving "11278" out of the yearly list are no surprise to me.
Look at his personal guns in his book.
Then look at Ralphs butcher job of 11278.
He did not get stuff from Ralph.
Randall never revised his book but was taking notes.
Whomever has them now will find stuff from me in there.
Lee Kelser was PRICELESS help to the "kid with all the questions" and showed me things on wartime guns on several occasions in person at NAPCA deals in KC .
Trial and error on them would have been a disaster and thanks bud and R.I.P
Those guys were not idiots nor fools and had the privilege of collecting in the heyday of "out of the woodwork" guns.
This battle is not about me or mine- I can fend for myself on HK's.
It is For Lee and Randall and Don and Richard C AND the troops that should hear the TRUTH about these.
They really are the easiest of all to pick bad apples out of and they are NOT like other lugers in many ways.
Fingers are sore and the BOSS needs some of my time.
I await return fire.
Filling in randomly skipped SNs four years later? No, I don't think so. There is no production line that has ever worked like that anywhere.
HK monthly production 1935-1940 probably never exceeded 700 at its peak. In 1936, production was maybe 7000, and maybe another 3000 were made in 1937. There was then a two year gap where Luger production was essentially zero (aside from commercial assemblies from leftovers). No, it isn't possible.
1933 FORD NUT
Well-known member
Let me be more clear.
Is it REMOTELY POSSIBLE an unfinished gun was misplaced- taken for study or WHATEVER and added back to the finishing process later?????
I happen to collect John Deere 2cyl tractors and the WAAYYY out of sequence serial thing is definitely not un- heard of.
Difference is John Deere did not lose a war and has never gone bankrupt.
This means you can verify this in their archives.
Why do you keep on with the "production" story when it is actually "assembled from existing inventory" after 1938. Could very well be 1937 .
Whoever said these were "production line" guns?
Are you aware these are hand built guns?
As long as we are at it, I am not aware of any "contract" between the Luftwaffe and HK other than the 10,000-contract finished in very early 1938.
Hear a lot of "the 1940 contract" but as far as I am concerned that is a myth.
There is some evidence that some parts may have not been totally finished cosmetically [frame ears 1941- 1944] and a few others but definitely not "production" after 1938.
Ever see an HONEST HK mag with a fxo tube.
This is the part of Gibsons book that needs updating the most.
After two years of this I am convinced your obsession with this knows no boundaries. Comparing this SMALL run of guns to actual major long term production is part of your issue.
I try to not use term like "never", "impossible"or "all fake"
AND AGAIN
What do you have after verifying a gun
is all HK parts,
has no welded-up areas,
has no re- machined areas,
has no added or altered markings
is all original and time frame correct metal finish- polishing
has all original bluing- heat treating
Answer is?
Is it REMOTELY POSSIBLE an unfinished gun was misplaced- taken for study or WHATEVER and added back to the finishing process later?????
I happen to collect John Deere 2cyl tractors and the WAAYYY out of sequence serial thing is definitely not un- heard of.
Difference is John Deere did not lose a war and has never gone bankrupt.
This means you can verify this in their archives.
Why do you keep on with the "production" story when it is actually "assembled from existing inventory" after 1938. Could very well be 1937 .
Whoever said these were "production line" guns?
Are you aware these are hand built guns?
As long as we are at it, I am not aware of any "contract" between the Luftwaffe and HK other than the 10,000-contract finished in very early 1938.
Hear a lot of "the 1940 contract" but as far as I am concerned that is a myth.
There is some evidence that some parts may have not been totally finished cosmetically [frame ears 1941- 1944] and a few others but definitely not "production" after 1938.
Ever see an HONEST HK mag with a fxo tube.
This is the part of Gibsons book that needs updating the most.
After two years of this I am convinced your obsession with this knows no boundaries. Comparing this SMALL run of guns to actual major long term production is part of your issue.
I try to not use term like "never", "impossible"or "all fake"
AND AGAIN
What do you have after verifying a gun
is all HK parts,
has no welded-up areas,
has no re- machined areas,
has no added or altered markings
is all original and time frame correct metal finish- polishing
has all original bluing- heat treating
Answer is?
No.
None of the documentation from Krieghoff has survived (and the Luftwaffe burned most of theirs) so we don't "know" anything, and a lot of what is published is just a bunch made up gun show fairy tales written down in the 1970s. That these are "hand built" is one of them, though I'm not really sure what that means. The BAL was running the production line and enforcing manufacturing processes and quality control.
As to your question, a good machinist can make a good fake. Good fake stamps exist and have for a very long time. "Verification" is not infallible and there is always the threat of comparing forgeries to other forgeries. I've always said I could be wrong, but there are very serious problems that are ignored.
1933 FORD NUT
Well-known member
Interesting answer.
Rember the question was "is it REMOTELY POSSIBLE.".
That must mean something different to you than me.
Rember the question was "is it REMOTELY POSSIBLE.".
That must mean something different to you than me.
1933 FORD NUT
Well-known member
Are you kidding?
Hand built speaks for itself.
Look at the guns.
As determined as your attack has been [for two years] I would assume you have hands on experience here?
The last sentence is priceless.
How many examples of their blind, drunk, incompetent work on these have you been shown? Speaking of ignoring things.
I can have a field day posting links to that stuff.
"running the production line", "enforcing manufacturing processes and quality control".
What production line?
pics"
To the troops, this is an old PeteE joke about the BAL inspector in charge of inspecting P.08's at HK.
I like to add it is him in the morning before morphine laced 100 proof coffee all day.
HK was holding very tight tolerances on stuff so what was this guy really doing anyway?
Like the "fairy tale" part.
Hand built speaks for itself.
Look at the guns.
As determined as your attack has been [for two years] I would assume you have hands on experience here?
The last sentence is priceless.
How many examples of their blind, drunk, incompetent work on these have you been shown? Speaking of ignoring things.
I can have a field day posting links to that stuff.
"running the production line", "enforcing manufacturing processes and quality control".
What production line?
pics"
To the troops, this is an old PeteE joke about the BAL inspector in charge of inspecting P.08's at HK.
I like to add it is him in the morning before morphine laced 100 proof coffee all day.
HK was holding very tight tolerances on stuff so what was this guy really doing anyway?
1933 FORD NUT
Well-known member
This really boils down to who you are trying to fool.
I have had the best try to sell me what you describe here without success.
I have had the best try to sell me what you describe here without success.
Fal Grunt
Senior Member
I went to a random guys place about a year ago to look at a roll mark machine for a customers job. While there he asked if I was interested in a Pantograph, I already have a couple, but I was interested to see what he had. Boy... what he had. Wow. In the next room there were shelves stacked with stamps. Bins stacked on top of bins full of masters, roll dies, and stamps.
Holy shite the stamps. Hundreds of them. Thousands of hours. Winchester, Remington, Sharps, K98k, S/42, P38, P08, Colt, MP44, on and on. Some were neatly organized, others were heaped in piles.
A friend of his had just died he said and he had bought his stuff. That was in a separate pile in another part of the room. I am by no means a Luger expert. In fact I stay away from Lugers except in rare circumstances due to the long history of "modifications", that and typically they are way out of my league. I know enough to recognize a lot. Bins of barrels, frames, toggles etc. Blanks. New Manufacture. Another probably 3 - 4 large totes full of masters, roll dies, and stamps.
Up until I met this guy, I genuinely believed that 90% of the fakes people cried were "humped" were just bad wartime or post war reworks. There are obviously fakes, usually they are bad and easily spotted. Most of what people call "fakes" simply are not worth the time to have faked. I have the machinery and the know how. I can make or modify just about anything. You want a certain production process duplicated with certain tool marks in a certain orientation? Simply put, 99% of people wouldn't pay the cost. That in and of itself is security in a certain way. People with the skills, knowledge, and equipment to do this kind of work typically price themselves out of this type of work.
After seeing this guys work, and some of the stuff he had laying around, I'm not sure what's real anymore.
Holy shite the stamps. Hundreds of them. Thousands of hours. Winchester, Remington, Sharps, K98k, S/42, P38, P08, Colt, MP44, on and on. Some were neatly organized, others were heaped in piles.
A friend of his had just died he said and he had bought his stuff. That was in a separate pile in another part of the room. I am by no means a Luger expert. In fact I stay away from Lugers except in rare circumstances due to the long history of "modifications", that and typically they are way out of my league. I know enough to recognize a lot. Bins of barrels, frames, toggles etc. Blanks. New Manufacture. Another probably 3 - 4 large totes full of masters, roll dies, and stamps.
Up until I met this guy, I genuinely believed that 90% of the fakes people cried were "humped" were just bad wartime or post war reworks. There are obviously fakes, usually they are bad and easily spotted. Most of what people call "fakes" simply are not worth the time to have faked. I have the machinery and the know how. I can make or modify just about anything. You want a certain production process duplicated with certain tool marks in a certain orientation? Simply put, 99% of people wouldn't pay the cost. That in and of itself is security in a certain way. People with the skills, knowledge, and equipment to do this kind of work typically price themselves out of this type of work.
After seeing this guys work, and some of the stuff he had laying around, I'm not sure what's real anymore.
1933 FORD NUT
Well-known member
This happen to be in MN?
Some of the "best" stuff has been seen there.
I had some parts made for a rare experimental 1958 JD plow in Bloomington MN.
The machinist told me about making some 6" luger barrels and other stuff.
Said client was EXTREMELY fussy.
We all know the rest of the story and they did indeed fool many folks.
BUT not all.
Boils down to who you are trying to fool.
Hope the stuff is in "deep storage".
Some of the "best" stuff has been seen there.
I had some parts made for a rare experimental 1958 JD plow in Bloomington MN.
The machinist told me about making some 6" luger barrels and other stuff.
Said client was EXTREMELY fussy.
We all know the rest of the story and they did indeed fool many folks.
BUT not all.
Boils down to who you are trying to fool.
Hope the stuff is in "deep storage".
Fal Grunt
Senior Member
I've got a Yakima plow and tool carrier on my B, not experimental, but I've been told very rare. Reminds me I have rockshaft arms for a 500 series tool carrier? I can't remember the number. I need to dig those out.
This was in PA. Unfortunately it was not in deep storage, as apparently "restoration" work is the guys full time job.
1933 FORD NUT
Well-known member
Yakima stuff is good property.
I have some unstyled B's but mostly 530- 830 tractors.
About 65 of them.
Plow I needed a couple parts for was a pre- production 825 rollover plow.
They found it had some weak points and corrected them on production models.
Being a detail geek, I wanted the poorly designed stuff on my plow. Not the updated parts. Nonavailable of course so off to the best machinist. Did a nice job, just like the fake "Navy" barrels.
The "Deep Storage" thing is priceless humor and aimed at the coming flood of "cigarette guns".
The old crooks were hacks.
Much more civilized now.
Look at "Knights crosses".
I have some unstyled B's but mostly 530- 830 tractors.
About 65 of them.
Plow I needed a couple parts for was a pre- production 825 rollover plow.
They found it had some weak points and corrected them on production models.
Being a detail geek, I wanted the poorly designed stuff on my plow. Not the updated parts. Nonavailable of course so off to the best machinist. Did a nice job, just like the fake "Navy" barrels.
The "Deep Storage" thing is priceless humor and aimed at the coming flood of "cigarette guns".
The old crooks were hacks.
Much more civilized now.
Look at "Knights crosses".
