RyanE and Lugers

[Hambone]

I happened to catch some of your posts at the Axis Pistols forum. You do understand that there are all manner of interests in the background which must promote and continue the various narratives which are unsound, particularly on the Krieghoff / HK / Ku areas which have been heavily sprinkled with high dollar fakes. It is obvious. I believe I would be censored and banned from there in a moment for wading in and adopting a position. You guys who know me know what my "win - loss" record is on my positions. The truth always causes the most hysterical negative reactions, i.e., the flak is always heaviest over the target. Fortunately for me, I am not beholden to any dealers (I'm not a trinket whore) nor am I invested in any theories or narratives to support what I've bought, sold, or collected.

You are running up against institutionalized narratives, with all manner of sellers, people in the chain of title, and money behind narratives which you oppose. The only person who saved me at Gunboreds was Tuco (RIP) with whom I often spoke and had a friendship. Tuco (Brent) was a friend of the hobby. Sadly, others are only friends of $ and the appearance of "authority". Keep up defending the truth and sound knowledge, but understand the latent resistance to it and why it is so, which will never be spoken openly, like the Champagne Rune SS matter and German helmet collecting. It took a man of wealth and integrity who valued truth and integrity over trinket whoring to essentially buy his own site to get that information out. Then, all the waftarded and helmet guys came out and exclaimed "we all knew that!" when the narrative got out of their control. If you push too much on a sacred cow false narrative you'll be attacked, then when you respond you'll be sanctioned, censored, then banned if you do not take a knee. We don't do that here. Ever see any of those guys come here on a level playing field to debate anything? When you see people censor, this is why:

 

[RyanE]

I appreciate the encouragement. I just post my thoughts and opinions, guided by what I know about how the German manufacturing and logistical systems worked. I don't even know if I am right about everything. Maybe Krieghoff did go completely insane and started producing 10 or so pistols a month, pulling the SNs at random out of a lottery wheel. Its not impossible.

And just for the record, I don't have any ill will towards anyone. I know its hard for people to accept that a lot of what they thought was established truth, might not be.

 

[Hambone]

I appreciate the encouragement. I just post my thoughts and opinions, guided by what I know about how the German manufacturing and logistical systems worked. I don't even know if I am right about everything. Maybe Krieghoff did go completely insane and started producing 10 or so pistols a month, pulling the SNs at random out of a lottery wheel. Its not impossible.

And just for the record, I don't have any ill will towards anyone. I know its hard for people to accept that a lot of what they thought was established truth, might not be.

Well, for the record, I do think poorly of certain people, which does generate a sense of ill will. I guess I'm a flawed human I've seen too much perhaps. I think you get where I'm going and some people need more hugs and stroking of egos than I'm willing to give out. Good luck with all that. If the narratives are heavily institutionalized that you are debating you may not get much support due to the general herd mentality of humans. We've seen that on display as of late and it is generally destructive of all things eventually. Good luck with it over there.

 

[mrfarb]

He’s doing the Lords work over there, I’ve lost the gumption to deal with it. In other news, I have tons of cool Luger reworks I should post pics of. Maybe one day.

 

[R.Blue]

I happened to catch some of your posts at the Axis Pistols forum. You do understand that there are all manner of interests in the background which must promote and continue the various narratives which are unsound, particularly on the Krieghoff / HK / Ku areas which have been heavily sprinkled with high dollar fakes. It is obvious. I believe I would be censored and banned from there in a moment for wading in and adopting a position. You guys who know me know what my "win - loss" record is on my positions. The truth always causes the most hysterical negative reactions, i.e., the flak is always heaviest over the target. Fortunately for me, I am not beholden to any dealers (I'm not a trinket whore) nor am I invested in any theories or narratives to support what I've bought, sold, or collected.

You are running up against institutionalized narratives, with all manner of sellers, people in the chain of title, and money behind narratives which you oppose. The only person who saved me at Gunboreds was Tuco (RIP) with whom I often spoke and had a friendship. Tuco (Brent) was a friend of the hobby. Sadly, others are only friends of $ and the appearance of "authority". Keep up defending the truth and sound knowledge, but understand the latent resistance to it and why it is so, which will never be spoken openly, like the Champagne Rune SS matter and German helmet collecting. It took a man of wealth and integrity who valued truth and integrity over trinket whoring to essentially buy his own site to get that information out. Then, all the waftarded and helmet guys came out and exclaimed "we all knew that!" when the narrative got out of their control. If you push too much on a sacred cow false narrative you'll be attacked, then when you respond you'll be sanctioned, censored, then banned if you do not take a knee. We don't do that here. Ever see any of those guys come here on a level playing field to debate anything? Lol. When you see people censor, this is why:

View attachment 353089

You can bank on being banned there…censored..wrist slapped…shut down…

I check out the site often but rarely comment or contribute because it’s mod control is out of control…one whisper of spirited debate and the threads are shut down…God help you if you even allude to anything political pertaining to our hobby/interests…
Being a NAPCA member since the 1990’s I was excited about the forum when it first developed but it’s never become as informative as the monthly publication AutoMag. NAPCA had it’s own member forum but it never generated much interest because of its limited availability.
The k98kforum is by far the best.

 

[joryfreeburg]

I don’t comment much on the Luger section here, but I do enjoy the threads here…… I don’t look elsewhere

Keep up the good work guys

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Interesting stuff.
Not sure I would call it the "Lords work" but that is up to you.
As I pointed out to Zhambone! I am in no way a part of that site.
Actually, been warned to play nice with Ryan.
The ban button would probably be a blessing.

I am not a dealer nor a seller of guns.
Just a student of HK produced military P.08's.
Yes, I have a few.

Should add I am definitely not a favorite of crooked dealers, and it was indeed me that pointed out the before and after pics of G date 95.
And many other shady things working with PeteE as the behind-the-scenes helper.

That said I am enjoying buying HK's cheaper than Mausers.
That is great until you realize it is hurting innocent people.
Perfect recent example is 1943 11423.
Person that sold it for $17,000 paid $25,000.

I posted a simple comparison here with a 1940.
Many more examples but they all get ignored.

Comparing HK produced P.08's to anything else is a fool's errand.

They are not depot guns and HK did not supply parts to any depots.
Seems obvious they did not take guns back in for repair either.
And they are goofed up all along.

Ground zero with these is they are all HK parts.
If you know them, they are the easiest of all to tell if fake.
Keep hearing how easy it is to turn S-1940 and postwar guns into these.
Posted many things to show how inaccurate that belief is.
Deflected- Ignored.

Real question to me is what did HK collectors do to deserve this false attack?
Do not care about dunk tanks or ban buttons but I do care about seeing " old timers" like Lee Kelser and Randall Gibson cast as fools.

Lee referred to me as the " kid with all the questions." and was a huge help.
He can no longer defend himself so I will.
Really hate seeing some of his old guns showing up in better shape nowadays and blaming him.
BS to that

95 before and after was not one of is but same deal

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Should add there is obviously good work being done here.
I posted links to the 2018 and 2015 threads showing the solving of the ku deal.
kudos

Ryan is obviously brilliant and I do wish we had not ended up on opposite sides of the canyon.

Pics are my Gibson favorites.
Calls the late war guns fake and gives Ralph a good slap.
Note 11278 is NOT listed as a 1941

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

NOTE in post 8 Ralph would have been smarter butchering poor ole 11278 into a 1944.

Frame front is only one of many issues to overcome using S- 1940 or postwar guns as donors.
Polishing on the 1936 can actually be more extreme.
Postwar needs numerous areas welded- machined back down and restamped.
Really comes down to who you are trying to fool

Not to mention honest postwars have always cost what wartime guns have.
EXCLUDING the 13,000 gems of course but as you can see Gibson called fake on them in 1979.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

If you analyze this list, they run from 11253 thru 11861.
Have not seen 11957 so leaving it out.

This is from 1979 of course but Randall was not an idiot.
Note they seem simply reversed.
With the standard HK mixing up that was there all along.

 

[jack944]

My 43 Krieg is 11428 right in the 43 range. It also has the rarer B2D magazine marking per Gibson.

 

[jack944]

I happened to catch some of your posts at the Axis Pistols forum. You do understand that there are all manner of interests in the background which must promote and continue the various narratives which are unsound, particularly on the Krieghoff / HK / Ku areas which have been heavily sprinkled with high dollar fakes. It is obvious. I believe I would be censored and banned from there in a moment for wading in and adopting a position. You guys who know me know what my "win - loss" record is on my positions. The truth always causes the most hysterical negative reactions, i.e., the flak is always heaviest over the target. Fortunately for me, I am not beholden to any dealers (I'm not a trinket whore) nor am I invested in any theories or narratives to support what I've bought, sold, or collected.

You are running up against institutionalized narratives, with all manner of sellers, people in the chain of title, and money behind narratives which you oppose. The only person who saved me at Gunboreds was Tuco (RIP) with whom I often spoke and had a friendship. Tuco (Brent) was a friend of the hobby. Sadly, others are only friends of $ and the appearance of "authority". Keep up defending the truth and sound knowledge, but understand the latent resistance to it and why it is so, which will never be spoken openly, like the Champagne Rune SS matter and German helmet collecting. It took a man of wealth and integrity who valued truth and integrity over trinket whoring to essentially buy his own site to get that information out. Then, all the waftarded and helmet guys came out and exclaimed "we all knew that!" when the narrative got out of their control. If you push too much on a sacred cow false narrative you'll be attacked, then when you respond you'll be sanctioned, censored, then banned if you do not take a knee. We don't do that here. Ever see any of those guys come here on a level playing field to debate anything? Lol. When you see people censor, this is why:

View attachment 353089

Links?

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

I saw pics of yours.
Would really appreciate some info on it for my database.
I see it has the same barrel markings as my 1943 11567.
Does the firing proof on barrel match your mag?
Mine does and is same as yours.

Not same on 11423.
Both are very common and on 1940 guns also.

The one posted here, 11423 is missing the barrel parts acceptance, NOT the fireproof.
Fireproof is large type stamp. Barrel parts proof is small type.

Thanks for the reply!!!!!
Dave

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Here is a link to mine.
Mine went from Franklin to his wife Florence in 1992 then to his son in 2009.
The Mortician that handled Florences funeral was a parttime picker and was buying some items from their son and his wife said " why not get rid of that old gun".
From mortician to Dave and 10 years later to me.
Waited over 30 years for the right one and it paid off.

Note 1917 holster and Mauser replacement tool.
Second mag does not match but has same proof .

Look at frame ear machining on mine and see if yours is like that or the sandblasted variety. 11423 is sandblasted type.

Many links available but I will wait and see what the powers that be here do about that.

Links?

My Favorite Krieghoff

I've had this for a spell but have been waiting for the bring back papers to arrive so I could do a proper show and tell....

www.lugerforums.com

 

[Philip]

I trust that RyanE has not been banned or suspended at the JS Luger forum, if so it would be shame but not something that I see would happen due to any “controversial” views on Lugers. The discussion on the post 1940 HK pieces and serial number peculiarities have been very interesting and valuable but like all similar questions with firearms collecting ultimately will have to solved by confirming or denying via carful hands on examination by multiple collectors and some sort of finding’s written up……much like what happened when the champagne runes debacle was fully exposed or in other cases were items suspected of being fake were verified as original.It can work both ways.
As I have posted several times before, the Ku mystery is far from solved. The location of the assembly, Kupper-Sagan, maybe solved but little else is. I do think we are getting close l to understanding how many were assembled but the specific timeframe and reason (other than the LW needed pistols!) is not very clear.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Not banned- suspended that I am aware of, but I am just a contributor.

I have been warned to play nice with Ryan but am still able to sign in.

This discussion is different than ku's as we are dealing with only HK guns that are only HK parts. All from the same place.

 

[Philip]

Not banned- suspended that I am aware of, but I am just a contributor.

I have been warned to play nice with Ryan but am still able to sign in.

This discussion is different than ku's as we are dealing with only HK guns that are only HK parts. All from the same place.

Yes I understand the HK aspect and differences between them and Ku very well. I only brought up the Ku because it was cited in the original post.

 

[RyanE]

Real question to me is what did HK collectors do to deserve this false attack?

Deserves got nothing to do with it. Disagreeing with you or other HK collectors is not "hurting innocent people" and its not "deflecting" or "ignoring", we just don't agree. That's all. No one even has to listen to me if they don't want to.

I have never called Gibson a fool, I have repeatedly said for 1979 the book is as about as good as it could have been, but he does not attack the 1945 guns or even call them fake. He just thinks they were finished/assembled somewhere other than Suhl. It fits in with his now thoroughly debunked idea of a "scramble" where all of the presumably numbered pistols were mixed up during a move to another location and then pulled at random years later. If he thought the 1945s were bogus, I suspect he would have said so.

But I am a little critical of the author. I don't know how anyone could look at a SN list of "wartime" HKs and not immediately suspect something is very wrong.

The one posted here, 11423 is missing the barrel parts acceptance, NOT the fireproof.
Fireproof is large type stamp. Barrel parts proof is small type.

That is not a military fireproof, that is an BAL2 acceptance. The correct FP is the adler on the receiver, and it should be stamped on the barrel like the "normal" HKs are. Its not right, and while not necessarily a fatal problem, it is another red flag among many.

Frame front is only one of many issues to overcome using S- 1940 or postwar guns as donors.
Polishing on the 1936 can actually be more extreme.
Postwar needs numerous areas welded- machined back down and restamped.

Someone recently did this very thing and created a new 1944, 11633. The poor individual suckered into buying this had it at the SOS, but I didn't have the heart to even ask to look at it. I don't think this is as impossible as you seem to think it is, though certainly workmanship is going to vary. This particular one appears well done, the bluing even looks quite good.

 

[Hambone]

I’m not a Luger collector. But after almost 40 years of seeing much (if not all) I can say without any hesitation that from those pics 1944 11633 is, to put it nicely, a fabrication. I’ve seen some of the best “restoration” work and it’s quite a bit better than that. If someone paid big bucks for that thing they are well out of their depth and got dealt an expensive teaching moment.

 

[1933 FORD NUT]

Part one.
I could come up with some quotes by you that disagree with this.

You are the one that keeps bringing up the "big scramble", not me.
Actually, Randall and Lee, both told me to not dwell on it.
It would drive me batty with no end in sight.
Is this that much more goofed up than the S- 1940 guns?
Kinda backwards but not that much more goofed up.
Actually, less goofed up number gap wise.
Also note there are not as many of these as some say.
Just like the "600" post wars is way past the actual amount.

Part two
Ever notice when it is the "impossible" proof the mag has it also and both the firing proof and the barrel gauge are through the blue? Not unusual for the same proof to be on right receiver also.
Have you found any use of these two exact stamps on anything other than HK P.08's.
You have had plenty time to look.
I have been looking.

Hardly the first time "wrong" proofs were used in the "wrong" place on HK's.
I can show examples of "firing" proofs being used on mags.
There is an entire thread on the really crappy work of E2 inspectors on HK P.08's.


Part three
Not sure what you see there but I would not bother picking it up.
Isn't 11633 a little off for a 1944?
Would make more sense as a 1942 maybe?
Or a 1941?
Like Ralph making poor ole 11278 into a 1941 instead of a 1944.

Not real hard to pick out bad apples with these.

What do you have when you verify a given example is all HK parts, has no welded, ground or remarked areas and has all its factory finish?

Not that hard to tell any of this on a HK.