Questions on an Unstamped K98

[10sfg18e]

Picked this up recently, besides one screw it's all matching, the former owner gave me a decent run down on what the potential history was via a book, in which unstamped K98s were referenced. Curious if anyone has read, or has any other opinion on this history of this K98. So far, the suspicion is the some parts previously did not pass specs but in the late war the specs were lowered and the gun was assembled and sent out. I suspect that the receiver was restamped to join the rest of the series but that part just happened to start with '59'. Seems coincidental, otherwise maybe it's just a mistake that was fixed. Not too sure on that one.

What I can see are matching S/Ns on buttstock, and interior groove, waffenamt 352, byf, and S/N on butt stock, another waffenamt on the grip and eagle but the numbers are unreadable. On the receiver/barrel: 38si80, 3x waffenamt 280, 2x waffenamt 623 under rear sight, last two numbers of S/Ns ground down, and restamped. Around the rest fo the rifle there are a few other waffenamts in various places with 80, 655.

 

[vaughn99]

Not a FACTORY WWII gun but put together with WWII parts and forced matching and some one bought stamps and went crazy. you need to return the gun ASAP it is a FAKE!!

later
vaughn

 

[DaveDavis]

A seriously BAD gun

 

[heavy_mech]

Hmm '38 MB finished Silesiastahl barrel with a flat butt plate stock. Seems ok except barrel is clocked upside down. Serious red flag. Worse is if you look at the receiver I'm certain someone has used a dremel or small belt sander to remove the last 2 digits to make it appear matching. Obviously more photos of details could tell us a lot about the parts used to make this up but bottom line is as others already said you should run away.

I should have read the OP closer. Seems you own this now. There has been discussion regarding the altering of serial numbers on the receiver and the general consensus is it's not good.

 

[M1903A3]

Agree with above, this gun was put together and faked specifically to deceive. Run away!

(EDIT: I think flynaked has made some good points about this rifle and because depot repaired rifles are something I know next to nothing about, and I trust his eye, I’m going to pull back from my statement. Let’s see what others think, it’s certainly an interesting possibility!)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[flynaked]

I agree a total put together, but I have to disagree that it’s fake.

Is no one looking at the Walther supplied ordnance spare receiver and Oberndorf armorer stock, clearly marked byf on the keel and the Spandau depot marked wrist? Also don’t forgot the depot applied “4” on the receiver top, I’ll bet the TG is marked as such too. Looks to me like this rifle got a NEW receiver and stock, which would explain the barrel being upside down, had to be re clocked for headspacing, no??

The receiver serial would be hand stamped to match the rifle, so I don’t see an issue there, you see messed up punched numbers/proofs get ground and restamped from time to time. Or am I just going crazy?

 

[heavy_mech]

..Is no one looking at the Walther supplied ordnance spare receiver

I did see that it was from Walther. I could not make out the stock markings other than it was an MO part. I'd never seen and didn't think they would do that receiver serial scrub but I certainly couldn't say for sure.

I'd also never seen a barrel clocked upside down.

Also the Steyr rear sight base threw me. I didn't think they supplied those as ordinance spares?

 

[flynaked]

HM,
Grinding and restamping definitely did occur, at one time I owned an example with even a partially restamped receiver code, I have pictures of that one, I’ll have to dig them up. That particular example was in the first 1k or so 1939 Gustloffs which all had hand stamped code/date before the roll mark was instituted.

As to the barrel, I have no clue what capabilities the particular depots had other than some may have lacked the capability to face receivers and such necessary for proper barrel indexing, I could see that being a real possibility as this is at least the second (what I believe to be a depot rifle) that I’ve seen with the original barrel serial now indexed under the wood line.

As to the Steyr sight base, I have to imagine some rifles that were beyond repair were likely broken down for parts, because I believe you are entirely right that I’ve never heard mention of them supplying spares.
I don’t specifically collect or study depot rifles and they can certainly be confusing at times so I would love to hear more discussion of this one.

 

[bnz41john]

Quite the interesting rifle. We would have to see better pictures to make a proper assessment of the rifle. If it is a depot build rifle (which would make since considering the walther receiver and conglomerate of parts) where is the specific depots roman numerals? Or were they not always used? I think Clay is spot on with his assessment. These depot rifles are not easy to follow.

John.

 

[heavy_mech]

I'd like to see if the OP jumps back in and could post some good photos of any markings he can find. It might significantly improve the rifles prospects.

 

[flynaked]

John, those Roman numeral rifles are ground up district builds, this one is a repair. I slightly edited some of the pictures to highlight the depot features, the wrist cartouche is about as sharp as you could hope to see in a laminate stock, I’ll admit the “byf” wasn’t as noticeable as I made it out to be so I circled it. Also notice the clear wear difference between above and below the wood line, while not impossible this would be a difficult detail to replicate if this were a fake.

 

[flynaked]

One other correlation that’s a tad interesting, there was definitely a predominance of left over imperial armorer parts utilized through the depot system. Notice the similarities in the depot rifle I posted awhile back using both an identical Oberndorf spare stock and both have imperial recoil cross lugs. Also while not a great quality picture at all here is that example of the first “3” in that 1939 Gustloff having been ground off and restamped, it’s far easier to see in hand and if we can convince Pzjgr for a better picture the rifle sits at his house now haha. You can see the break in the machining rings where the surface was ground before restamping.

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?33642-Spotted-a-Naumburg-depot-rifle-but

 

[10sfg18e]

Gent's,

Thank you for the follow ups, I did buy the rifle. The price was reasonable enough that I took a risk on it.

With more attention to detail I will comb this rifle over with a DSLR and post those pictures up. Looking it over, in retrospect I jumped the gun on the ground S/N, and no code on the receiver. However, everything else (in my estimate) just seemed right.

I'll go back over this thing: It would be a bummer to find out I have a fake, even though the price was reasonable - it wasn't that reasonable.

 

[heavy_mech]

..the wrist cartouche is about as sharp as you could hope to see in a laminate stock, I’ll admit the “byf” wasn’t as noticeable

Well you've either got fantastic eyes or you're part detective, but I've got to give you props. Funny thing is the byf and the keel serial is what I could see pretty easily. The depot stamp and the two? waffenamts between the byf and depot stamp are really hard to make out. Here is the max I can zoom without specialty programs and still really hard to make out. What do you make? Su19 maybe? Anyway great work and I can't wait to see more photos. Fwiw I still would not have believed they would have allowed a rifle to leave with a barrel clocked upside down but live and learn I guess. This has certainly been an eye-opening post.



I had a chance to check the bible and IIb page 803 seems to have this exact array of stamps on the keel. Serial, byf, large depot eagle, and small depot eagle.

 

[10sfg18e]

Added pictures, struggled to get focus on some of the smallest waffenamts.

 

[10sfg18e]

Few more pictures.

Best I can tell every S/N is matching minus 1 bolt, which the prior owner said was broken when upon disassembly.

 

[pzjgr]

One other correlation that’s a tad interesting, there was definitely a predominance of left over imperial armorer parts utilized through the depot system. Notice the similarities in the depot rifle I posted awhile back using both an identical Oberndorf spare stock and both have imperial recoil cross lugs. Also while not a great quality picture at all here is that example of the first “3” in that 1939 Gustloff having been ground off and restamped, it’s far easier to see in hand and if we can convince Pzjgr for a better picture the rifle sits at his house now haha. You can see the break in the machining rings where the surface was ground before restamping.

http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?33642-Spotted-a-Naumburg-depot-rifle-but

Didn't see this...I'll try and get a better pic, but I am not as good as the naked flier...I'll likely have to scrub out my crayon too...

Very interested to see more discussion on this...I didn't notice, is there a second Fire Proof on the barrel? If the Germans re-barreled it, it would have to be re-proofed by law, correct?

 

[Wolfsburg]

This is shaping up to be a pretty neat rifle I think. Note the newer Nazi fireproof on the left side of the barrel and the older (and now upside down) droop wing fireproof and serial on the right side.

 

[Stan]

This is shaping up to be a pretty neat rifle I think. Note the newer Nazi fireproof on the left side of the barrel and the older (and now upside down) droop wing fireproof and serial on the right side.

Yes, this would point to a reproofing after the barrel was installed in that orientation on the new receiver. I wonder how often this combo shows up since almost always a new barrel on the original receiver. Interesting rifle!

 

[flynaked]

It’s only the second receiver replacement I can remember seeing, I do not believe I saved pictures of the other one unfortunately. This is after all why they made spare/depot receivers, why else. Notice the odd location of the receiver and barrel fire proofs, further evidence of a non production setting since there were stipulations as to the exact location of these proofs from the factory.

The TG isn’t shown but I bet it likely has the same “4” as the receiver top does. I wonder what the purpose of these numbers is; I have a depot rifle with the same “4” at the top of the receiver in the same location and that rifle isn’t even a rebarrel. Neat rifle, thanks for sharing it with us and the additional photos.