Questionable Camos
- Thread starter M45
- Start date
Yes, and of course, IMHO, at places like WAF, those disputing or questioning would be censored, then banned, or the thread locked after the heretic was sufficiently hectored and insulted by the GOBs and assorted toadies and waftards.
It's so funny because I started working funshow tables with my mentor in the hobby when I was about 16. I've seen this happen, invariably with something quite crappy and obviously humped, not of the quality of this. the humping usually happens to someone who thinks they know more than they do, i.e., someone who doesn't know what they don't know, who fancies himself an exspurt. It's quite interesting (from a psychological standpoint) what greed and a trinket whore mentality will cause people to do. It's why there are still Nigerian email scams.
Where this becomes detrimental for the entire hobby, beyond the Nazi trinket whoring greedy commons senseless shmoe, is when the shmoe is an internets forum GOB who is hooked up with the mods and people are being protected from open critique and discussion. Then we get fakes used to "authenticate" fakes.
Here's an example. This helmet was posted on the WAF several years ago by a popular collector. It was deemed by friends of the owner to have "unquestionable provenance" and must therefore be real.
Eurofighter
Well-known member
Here's an example. This helmet was posted on the WAF several years ago by a popular collector. It was deemed by friends of the owner to have "unquestionable provenance" and must therefore be real.
Interesting, this helmet was also positively reviewed on another forum only last year.
I recognize it as one depicted in the "German Helmets" early paperbacks by Goodapple, etc. Collectors, kids, bikers, and hippies were painting and "camouflaging" German helmets from 1946 through the 60s and 70s. Just because it was done 40-50 years ago and has a story doesn't make it original. I have never seen much about this helmet to indicate that it was original.
Even in the 1950s, I can't recall having seen a WWII camouflage helmet at shows or otherwise offered. There were a few from WWI with the same prices as non-camos. GIs seemed to prefer nicely decaled, high condition helmets as their souvenirs that displayed well unless they had some story about the helmet's capture that made it unique. Paratroopers were almost impossible to find and while high condition M.35 and M.42s were in the $5 range, they commanded higher prices than Lugers, which seemed to be the guns that everybody wanted. Sadly, many of these helmets became inexpensive toys and after much abuse, ended-up on the curb. Since the mid seventies there has been an explosion of available chicken wire and camouflage helmets on the market and at larger shows there are frequently several camos offered. I appreciate that a lot of WWII guys have gone to their reward and even the volunteer VA driver who used to find me nice items has passed on, but the presence of faked WWII helmets is killing the market. Even those I know who have been in the trade for generations have trouble keeping ahead of the fakers.
Old Corps, I completely agree. I do not recall encountering any camo helmets when I was young. The only exception being a white painted helmet that was taken at the Bulge. I had a childhood friend whose father brought it back and we used it to play with. The fakes probably started when GI's on occupation duty found a ready market with the new troops who had "missed the party" and wanted to have some Nazi souvenir to take home. Adding decals to helmets and making up "parts daggers" were early manifestations of what has become a cancer in this hobby.
Cheers,
-Mike
Cheers,
-Mike
M45
Well-known member
I appreciate when collectors with such longevity in the hobby share what was happening back in the day. It gives a good perspective that clashes tremendously with what we see today.
but the presence of faked WWII helmets is killing the market.
It is my hope that forums like k98k in addition to good reference works will help to kill off the IL-legitmate helmet market. But as that happens, it will make the originals even that more desirable once the collecting world finally learns what to look for.
As I see it, there are 3 categories of helmets:
1. 100% originals
2. Vet altered (soldier art, decals in odd positions, improper decals for shell type, very old 'camos', etc)
3. Altered helmets not by Vets; (questionable helmets of all other types)
but the presence of faked WWII helmets is killing the market.
It is my hope that forums like k98k in addition to good reference works will help to kill off the IL-legitmate helmet market. But as that happens, it will make the originals even that more desirable once the collecting world finally learns what to look for.
As I see it, there are 3 categories of helmets:
1. 100% originals
2. Vet altered (soldier art, decals in odd positions, improper decals for shell type, very old 'camos', etc)
3. Altered helmets not by Vets; (questionable helmets of all other types)
M45
Well-known member
http://germanwarhelmet.com/german-helmets-for-sale2/
WW2 M35 Q62 German Luftwaffe Camo Helmet
Item: H287 This is a helmet from my personal collection that I acquired many years back from the family of a WWII Veteran which were located 10 minutes away from me in Robbinsville, New Jersey. This is a high grade WWII Luftwaffe Camo helmet made available for the first time from my personal collection. War time period applied colors consist of green, tan and red. The Luftwaffe decal can be clearly seen under the crazing camo paint on the left side. No indication of a National Tri-color decal on the right side which is typical for a 1940 ordinance order given. Super tight fitting liner system 100% original to the helmet. All three untouched split pin rivet fasteners intact and complete with all three slotted washers. Goat skin leather liner fully pliable, undamaged and has taken on a darkened aged appearance. Buckle end of the chinstrap is the correct aluminum. Long portion of strap is in full length and pliable. Manufacturer and date on tip is indiscernible. As a re-issue it has the name of a (Kan) Kanoneer Rossmanit which is a Flak Gunner and also in white paint E.B. Drawstring is in its full length with original knot still in place. Overall Excellent condition, you wont’ find one better!
This helmet was also published in The Camouflage Helmets of the Wehrmacht by Paul Martin
An 'exotic freshie' with vet association, a good ownership history, and published.
A well-distributed minor wear which is unnatural, IMO. A mimicking of the RAL 3-color camo scheme but colors are way off (either soldiers had RAL or they didn't - why would they attempt to duplicate RAL if they did not have it ?). Near 100% camo coverage despite being a front line helmet (it has that used but not abused look that we like to see). These "4th Reich" camos are popping up left and right 'out of the woodwork'.
WW2 M35 Q62 German Luftwaffe Camo Helmet
Item: H287 This is a helmet from my personal collection that I acquired many years back from the family of a WWII Veteran which were located 10 minutes away from me in Robbinsville, New Jersey. This is a high grade WWII Luftwaffe Camo helmet made available for the first time from my personal collection. War time period applied colors consist of green, tan and red. The Luftwaffe decal can be clearly seen under the crazing camo paint on the left side. No indication of a National Tri-color decal on the right side which is typical for a 1940 ordinance order given. Super tight fitting liner system 100% original to the helmet. All three untouched split pin rivet fasteners intact and complete with all three slotted washers. Goat skin leather liner fully pliable, undamaged and has taken on a darkened aged appearance. Buckle end of the chinstrap is the correct aluminum. Long portion of strap is in full length and pliable. Manufacturer and date on tip is indiscernible. As a re-issue it has the name of a (Kan) Kanoneer Rossmanit which is a Flak Gunner and also in white paint E.B. Drawstring is in its full length with original knot still in place. Overall Excellent condition, you wont’ find one better!
This helmet was also published in The Camouflage Helmets of the Wehrmacht by Paul Martin
An 'exotic freshie' with vet association, a good ownership history, and published.
A well-distributed minor wear which is unnatural, IMO. A mimicking of the RAL 3-color camo scheme but colors are way off (either soldiers had RAL or they didn't - why would they attempt to duplicate RAL if they did not have it ?). Near 100% camo coverage despite being a front line helmet (it has that used but not abused look that we like to see). These "4th Reich" camos are popping up left and right 'out of the woodwork'.
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M45
Well-known member
"True DAK"
http://www.ghw2.com/topic/52537-army-m35-dak/
Anyway... about the helmet. This is a true DAK.
Zengerle was a very uncommon name in the Wehrmacht. He was the only one in North Africa.
Prior to me acquiring the helmet, there was research done and it was determined that he survived the retreat from there but ended up dying in Sicily and is buried there.
The evidence of what happened to him is obvious and is a reminder that none of what they were facing was fun and games....
In my opinion.... this is an extremely rare helmet. A named and field post id'd DAK with the desirable salmon "pink" paint and African sand mixed in is hard enough. On top of that it has it's original 1937 liner.
While blood soaked leather in WIA/KIA helmets are not uncommon, I have never seen another where the outside has been preserved (no cleaning or handling) so that the blood tracks where it ran out of the vent and down the side of the helmet are still there. Talk about painting a picture!
I realize that some are not comfortable with physical evidence of a persons death when it comes to collecting these things. I certainly don't want to sensationalize it. It is not a side show item. But... it is a record of what happened and the brutality of war.
One last side note to any serious collector that may want to make a offer on this.... Prior to my obtaining it..... there was a conversation that some remembered it originally showing up at the SOS with what was left of a cut strap.
Someone (I don't know who) took that off and placed a full length strap on it for display. The sad part of that is.... the original did not stay with the helmet and was lost. That was a sorry thing to do but there's nothing I can do about it now.
I took that strap off and replaced it with the worn short (buckle) end of another that matches the overall condition of the rest of the helmet.
This one looks like a modern revamping of an original heavily worn DD Heer. It looks like the original factory parade paint showing in the damaged areas of the camo. It has a REX-39 look to it, and they may have used the same distress techniques to the camo. Rivets worn to bare metal right next to pristine conditioned sand/texture. They utilized the original patina on the crown by painting around it and distressing the camo near it.
Good color selection and top notch wear. Well done. This one will fool 95% of us IMO. Get ready for many more.
This helmet is also discussed here:
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/viewtopic.php?pid=9655
http://www.ghw2.com/topic/52537-army-m35-dak/
Anyway... about the helmet. This is a true DAK.
Zengerle was a very uncommon name in the Wehrmacht. He was the only one in North Africa.
Prior to me acquiring the helmet, there was research done and it was determined that he survived the retreat from there but ended up dying in Sicily and is buried there.
The evidence of what happened to him is obvious and is a reminder that none of what they were facing was fun and games....
In my opinion.... this is an extremely rare helmet. A named and field post id'd DAK with the desirable salmon "pink" paint and African sand mixed in is hard enough. On top of that it has it's original 1937 liner.
While blood soaked leather in WIA/KIA helmets are not uncommon, I have never seen another where the outside has been preserved (no cleaning or handling) so that the blood tracks where it ran out of the vent and down the side of the helmet are still there. Talk about painting a picture!
I realize that some are not comfortable with physical evidence of a persons death when it comes to collecting these things. I certainly don't want to sensationalize it. It is not a side show item. But... it is a record of what happened and the brutality of war.
One last side note to any serious collector that may want to make a offer on this.... Prior to my obtaining it..... there was a conversation that some remembered it originally showing up at the SOS with what was left of a cut strap.
Someone (I don't know who) took that off and placed a full length strap on it for display. The sad part of that is.... the original did not stay with the helmet and was lost. That was a sorry thing to do but there's nothing I can do about it now.
I took that strap off and replaced it with the worn short (buckle) end of another that matches the overall condition of the rest of the helmet.
This one looks like a modern revamping of an original heavily worn DD Heer. It looks like the original factory parade paint showing in the damaged areas of the camo. It has a REX-39 look to it, and they may have used the same distress techniques to the camo. Rivets worn to bare metal right next to pristine conditioned sand/texture. They utilized the original patina on the crown by painting around it and distressing the camo near it.
Good color selection and top notch wear. Well done. This one will fool 95% of us IMO. Get ready for many more.
This helmet is also discussed here:
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/viewtopic.php?pid=9655
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M45
Well-known member
Norwegian Camo
http://www.ghw2.com/topic/52777-m40-q64-camo-helmet-new-purchase/
I do not care for many of the camos coming out of Norway, this being one of them. A mimicking of the 3 color camo scheme as the shades are off. (Why would a trooper attempt to mimic RAL colors if he did not have them). Wear on the rivet appears unnatural as well as the new, bright green.
http://www.ghw2.com/topic/52777-m40-q64-camo-helmet-new-purchase/
I do not care for many of the camos coming out of Norway, this being one of them. A mimicking of the 3 color camo scheme as the shades are off. (Why would a trooper attempt to mimic RAL colors if he did not have them). Wear on the rivet appears unnatural as well as the new, bright green.
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M45
Well-known member
Theory shot out the window ??
GHW talking about good conditioned camos. They loved Ken's statement. (So there, Brian Ice :\ )
"Craig and Brian, take note of the tops of some of those helmets in that pile. Not much wear eh? No more than the overall wear and not all beat to hell. So Brian Ice, your theory is shot out the window."
They are referring to ONLY ONE aspect of camo critique here; crown wear. There are many other aspects as well, which certainly should be considered. I am not advocating crown wear as the ONLY factor to be considered.
If you zoom in on that DAK helmet pile photo, you will see that those helmets were NOT captured while on the drying rack and did NOT go through a time machine to emerge in pristine condition decades later.
The "True DAK" helmet above has plenty of crown wear was well as other wear, but I do not like it for other reasons. (See? I'm not just depending on crown wear for authenticity)
Several helmets in the photo appear to have retained their factory finish without any tan camo whatsoever.
GHW talking about good conditioned camos. They loved Ken's statement. (So there, Brian Ice :\ )
"Craig and Brian, take note of the tops of some of those helmets in that pile. Not much wear eh? No more than the overall wear and not all beat to hell. So Brian Ice, your theory is shot out the window."
They are referring to ONLY ONE aspect of camo critique here; crown wear. There are many other aspects as well, which certainly should be considered. I am not advocating crown wear as the ONLY factor to be considered.
If you zoom in on that DAK helmet pile photo, you will see that those helmets were NOT captured while on the drying rack and did NOT go through a time machine to emerge in pristine condition decades later.
The "True DAK" helmet above has plenty of crown wear was well as other wear, but I do not like it for other reasons. (See? I'm not just depending on crown wear for authenticity)
Several helmets in the photo appear to have retained their factory finish without any tan camo whatsoever.
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I've made this comment before, but I'll say it again: why is it that every super rare nice condition German helmet is ID'd to a unique last name? Every time. "There is only one guy in the German military that had this name."
Were there no Müller's or Schmitt's serving in the wehrmacht?
There is the attempt to pigeon hole all people and opinions into one all encompassing obvious fallacy. Since you are not there to defend yourself, then those allies of the commenter will believe that attribution and hiss and boo in the background. I know you've never said that, or rather I've not seen it posted. "Crown wear" is an indicia like anything else. The complete lack of it, or crown wear which looks contrived is a problem, just as excessive crown wear that looks contrived and rust aged to look like real crown wear. As an aside, such a discussion invariably conjurs up a couple Rust Exspurts who proclaim that they can tell "new rust" from "old rust".
Ruffin, can you enlighten us on "new rust" vs. "old rust"?
M45
Well-known member
After becoming acquainted with REX-39's work, I am no longer amazed by such camos. I do not doubt that REX could paint you up one very similar to the 'true DAK' example.
As I mentioned previously, the rivets worn to bare metal right next to pristine conditioned sand texture has me concerned.
Talk to REX. He will probably tell you that he sees nothing on that helmet that he could not replicate (starting with a heavily worn original). And if that is the case, then theoretically no camos are a safe bet.