Question on Polish bolts

[runner]

I hope this post is ok on this forum. I have developed quite an interest in Polish arms of 1919 through 1939. Original matching examples are difficult to locate, and accurate resource materials almost non-existent in the US.
I am currently attempting to complete a couple rifles, and I am missing a critical piece of information.
We know the Polish K98 was a virtual copy of the Imperial German kar98, and used the same type of turned down bolt handle with the bottom of the ball flattened and knurled.

My immediate question concerns the k29/WZ29 short rifle. These appear to have been factory equipped with both straight bolt handles with traditional round knobs, and with turned down bolt handles.

So my question is did the k29/WZ29 with factory turned down bolts have a flattened knob like the k98 carbines or a turned down bolt with the full round knob as found on the German K98k?

If anyone has an example of a k29 or WZ29 with factory matching numbers , this should clear this up. Even a period photo that clearly shows the type of bolt knob.

I have searched the web and only find clearly wrong or conflicting info.

My only reference book on Polish mausers has poor photos and the text is in Polish.

I apologize in advance for this long post, and Paul feel free to delete it if you feel it is inappropriate.

Finally a shameless plug: I am desperate need of a k29 that has intact receiver markings and two loose polish bolts, or imperial German bolts reused and marked by the Poles.

Best regards, Frank

 

[Dusky]

You've summoned krukster86, ill let him know you posted, he's way more knowledgeable about polish mausers than me

 

[krukster86]

We know the Polish K98 was a virtual copy of the Imperial German kar98, and used the same type of turned down bolt handle with the bottom of the ball flattened and knurled.

Not necessarily 100% true. There are examples of Polish K98's with matching straight bolts. The link below is one that I got from Dusky:

1929 FB Radom Kbk Wz.1898 (Slight German Rework)

A while back, member Dusky found a Polish Karabinek Wz. 1898 at his LGS and he and I have been discussing that rifle and other various milsurps on and off for months now. When the time came that he decided that it really didn't fit into his scope of collecting and he wanted it to go to a loving...

www.k98kforum.com

Additionally, there are plenty of period photos with straight bolt K98's.

My immediate question concerns the k29/WZ29 short rifle. These appear to have been factory equipped with both straight bolt handles with traditional round knobs, and with turned down bolt handles.

So my question is did the k29/WZ29 with factory turned down bolts have a flattened knob like the k98 carbines or a turned down bolt with the full round knob as found on the German K98k?

If anyone has an example of a k29 or WZ29 with factory matching numbers , this should clear this up. Even a period photo that clearly shows the type of bolt knob.

From the reference material I have read, there were no mass produced K29/Wz29 made with factory bent bolts (though it is possible small numbers were made for field trials). The reference materials that I have seen "handwave" any matching bent bolt Wz29/K29s as a post-capture rework/modification.

I think @tokarev38 may be able to supplement more. He has been collecting for far longer than I have.

My references for this material have been:
1. Karabiny i Karabinki Mauser 98 w Wojsku Polskim w latach 1918-1939 by P. Rozdzestwienski and K. Haladaj
2. Wielki Leksykon Uzbrojenia Wrzesien 1939 Tom. 35 and Tom. 10
3. PM conversations with user Cartoonist on GunBoards

This is a poorly researched topic in my opinion, and even less so in English language.

 

[krukster86]

I know user RyanE posted some photos of his Polish Wz29 bolt in another thread on Polish rifles. I don't see it clarified if it was matching to his rifle, and it appears to have been reworked/refinished, as the shroud, safety, and cocking piece are blued, so we cannot be 100% certain if it was bent to begin with from the factory. I think he stated that this was a 1935 dated Wz.29, but the bolt serialization method of stamping the bolt stem base with the eagles and serial number is something that was reserved to the earlier K29s (well before 1935), if I am not mistaken.

 

[krukster86]

As another counterpoint that I offer for further discussion, I have found this example of a 1937 dated Wz.29 on the WarRelics.eu forum (claimed to be a GI bringback) that has a Polish marked bent bolt that is claiming to be matching, and is of the Kar.98a design with the checkered flat surface, however, the font of the serial number on the bolt stem is quite odd and doesn't look like the font typically used by the Poles, and the Poles would have included the suffix letter on the bolt serial. I am speculating here, but this seems to me to be a Polish K98 bolt that was force matched to this Wz.29. Since it is claimed to be a GI bringback, it may be possible that it was fitted with the K98 bolt by the Germans and force matched?

 

[Navy87Guy]

I was looking through York’s book on VIS Radom and he includes a photo of the G29/40 - the occupation version of the wz.29 (p. 248). The example he shows (Serial # 1047, produced in 1939) has a bent bolt. It was produced by Steyr (Code 660) using a captured FB Radom receiver.

 

[krukster86]

I was looking through York’s book on VIS Radom and he includes a photo of the G29/40 - the occupation version of the wz.29 (p. 248). The example he shows (Serial # 1047, produced in 1939) has a bent bolt. It was produced by Steyr (Code 660) using a captured FB Radom receiver.

I’m no expert on these, but I’d call them K98k style rifles made with Polish parts. I think these G29/40’s are outfitted with K98k bolts, not Wz.29 bolts, so it might not be a perfect example. I could be wrong.

 

[runner]

I was looking through York’s book on VIS Radom and he includes a photo of the G29/40 - the occupation version of the wz.29 (p. 248). The example he shows (Serial # 1047, produced in 1939) has a bent bolt. It was produced by Steyr (Code 660) using a captured FB Radom receiver.

The G29/40 was basically a K98k made by Steyr in Austria using wz29 receivers captured in Poland. Being produced for the German military, under German supervision, other than markings they were K98ks and used the K98k style bolt. When the supply of captured receivers were exhausted, even the markings were standard K98k style.

i greatly appreciate everyone who responded to this thread. To sum up, it seems a Polish straight bolt with round knob would be appropriate for any of the Polish produced mausers 1919 through 1939. Polish produced bolts with turned down handles and flattened knobs would be appropriate for, but not exclusively, the K98. Did I get that right?

Now I still need two Polish bolts and a crested K29, anybody with leads please pm me.

 

[runner]

I’m no expert on these, but I’d call them K98k style rifles made with Polish parts. I think these G29/40’s are outfitted with K98k bolts, not Wz.29 bolts, so it might not be a perfect example. I could be wrong.

Didn’t mean to step on your post, we were both typing, and you are quicker

 

[krukster86]

No problem, this is a collaborative effort. Glad we were on the same page!

 

[runner]

Not necessarily 100% true. There are examples of Polish K98's with matching straight bolts. The link below is one that I got from Dusky:

1929 FB Radom Kbk Wz.1898 (Slight German Rework)

A while back, member Dusky found a Polish Karabinek Wz. 1898 at his LGS and he and I have been discussing that rifle and other various milsurps on and off for months now. When the time came that he decided that it really didn't fit into his scope of collecting and he wanted it to go to a loving...

www.k98kforum.com

Additionally, there are plenty of period photos with straight bolt K98's.

View attachment 345093View attachment 345094View attachment 345095



From the reference material I have read, there were no mass produced K29/Wz29 made with factory bent bolts (though it is possible small numbers were made for field trials). The reference materials that I have seen "handwave" any matching bent bolt Wz29/K29s as a post-capture rework/modification.

I think @tokarev38 may be able to supplement more. He has been collecting for far longer than I have.

My references for this material have been:
1. Karabiny i Karabinki Mauser 98 w Wojsku Polskim w latach 1918-1939 by P. Rozdzestwienski and K. Haladaj
2. Wielki Leksykon Uzbrojenia Wrzesien 1939 Tom. 35 and Tom. 10
3. PM conversations with user Cartoonist on GunBoards

This is a poorly researched topic in my opinion, and even less so in English language.

Agree, not a lot of research on these, at least in the US. I can’t find any English language references of any quality. I think our best bet is to keep posting any found examples until some trends start to develop.

i did get a few interesting emails from a gentleman in Poland after I posted my matching W98 a while back, but the language barrier made exchanging information very difficult. A major problem seems to be that US and Polish collectors refer to the same models by different names.

 

[krukster86]

A major problem seems to be that US and Polish collectors refer to the same models by different names.

The “decoder ring” that I recommend:

Karabin Wz.1898 = Wz98 Long Rifle with langevisier rollercoaster sights

Karabinek Wz.1898 = Polish K98 (carbine, facsimile of the German Kar.98a)

Karabinek Wz.1929 = Wz29/K29 short rifle

Karabin Wz. 1898a = Wz.98a long rifle with flat tangent rear sight.

 

[runner]

interestingly, my Karabin Wz.1898, long rifle with Lange sight, is marked W98 on the sidewall and not Wz98 as I would have expected. My example is from 1924, I believe the first year of production. Perhaps 1925 or 26 dated examples had Wz 98 sidewall markings?

 

[Stan]

interestingly, my Karabin Wz.1898, long rifle with Lange sight, is marked W98 on the sidewall and not Wz98 as I would have expected. My example is from 1924, I believe the first year of production. Perhaps 1925 or 26 dated examples had Wz 98 sidewall markings?

Unfortunately, so few totally matching Polish Mausers seem to get posted that finding any sort of meaningful trends is difficult. Here is another side rail marking not seen too often...

 

[krukster86]

interestingly, my Karabin Wz.1898, long rifle with Lange sight, is marked W98 on the sidewall and not Wz98 as I would have expected. My example is from 1924, I believe the first year of production. Perhaps 1925 or 26 dated examples had Wz 98 sidewall markings?

Very nice! 1924 is actually the last year of production of the Wz.98 long rifle (in this configuration) if I’m not mistaken. After this point, PFK Warszawa was producing the K98 carbines.

I have seen some variation in the side rail markings. Some later Wz.1898a rifles have been seen marked Wz.98a or simply 98a.

 

[krukster86]

Unfortunately, so few totally matching Polish Mausers seem to get posted that finding any sort of meaningful trends is difficult. Here is another side rail marking not seen too often...

excellent example Stan! If I’m not mistaken, that is a small ring Polish K98 that was converted to the Wz29/K29 short rifle configuration in the late 1920’s? Not many of these are around.

 

[runner]

Unfortunately, so few totally matching Polish Mausers seem to get posted that finding any sort of meaningful trends is difficult. Here is another side rail marking not seen too often...

Nice rifle Stan. I had a chance at one of these small ring k98’s converted to K29 configuration at a small show a few years ago, foolishly passed because I couldn’t find any documentation on it and didn’t realize it was a legitimate Polish variation.

 

[krukster86]

Runner, just be sure that the rifle was designated as a K98-29 (or similar). A lot of times, collectors state-side dropped in a sporterized K98 into a spare Wz.29 stock and sold the rifle like that. An easy way (other than the siderail marking) to tell a true K98-29 conversion from a simple stock swap K98 is to see if there isn't a gap in the stock around the receiver area (small ring K98 in a regular Wz.29 large ring stock will show an obvious gap in the wood).

 

[Stan]

Nice rifle Stan. I had a chance at one of these small ring k98’s converted to K29 configuration at a small show a few years ago, foolishly passed because I couldn’t find any documentation on it and didn’t realize it was a legitimate Polish variation.

Unfortunately, it is not my rifle. I saved the image of it since I had not heard of those conversions at the time. I have seen some similar Polish K98's that have been placed in a Wz 29 stock and fittings that had the gap around the receiver to stock fit as mentioned. I would agree with krukster that those could have been assembled from available parts by somebody here, or possibly even by Spain, or Interarms when they purchased the Spanish surplus arsenal back in the late 50's or so.

 

[Stan]

Another thought on the possibilities of bent bolt Wz29's. Since the photos above show straight and bent bolt use in the K98, are there specific s/n ranges that can distinguish between K98 and Wz29 production? If a K98 style bent bolt was used in both models, once they got mismatched bolts the only way to tell them apart would be by the s/n range. So many surviving Polish rifles today are mismatched to some degree. Just wondering if any surviving mismatched K98 bolts could be placed to a Wz 29 s/n?