PTR44 Semi-Auto MP44

[shortfal]

stock attachment

No, the actor was firing it on the last day of the shoot-out, and the stock dropped out of the stock-bracket -
The two screws had shredded the wood, as he released it from his shoulder, the recoil spring popped-it-off and the wood fell away.

I had the holes opened, filled with a deep wood insert, then re-drilled for the screws, better than new now - the work took a few weeks. But is rock solid now.

We were not using Swanson blanks, which can be a hot, just the Atlantic Wall loads, which run equivalent to a 3/4 flash blank - very, efficient and consistent - it was simply the amount of firing we did with it and 70 year old wood, which may or may not have been through hell and back.

And, as stated above, these are not and NEVER were anywhere near as strong as an AK47.
The design was not perfected in 1944, they knew it was problematic, reading Sturmgewehr! you get a full sense of the desperation and problems they had with the design.

We have a PTR44 in the inventory, I wouldn't use it for a film like this which was almost two solid weeks of blasting - the PTR's are beautifully made replicas, not work-horses.

Sounds like a somewhat decent fix for a not uncommon issue with the original guns. I often see them with varying amounts of looseness stock to rec. cap. Wood shrinkage is probably part of it. Tightening the screws seems to fix but not for too long due to the wood not being tight inside the cap. I've done a few by putting mold release inside the cap then bedding the wood to the cap with epoxy. Likely a permanent fix.
Pete

 

[d dAY dOG]

yep -- back on topic !!!

 

[mostpeople]

I like that transit case!

 

[d dAY dOG]

I like that transit case!

Check out the stenciling on the lid ... A forum member from MG42.us put this together for me. He offered to build some for people who wanted one a few years back, but I think only 1 or 2 guys took him up on it. I didn't pay that much for it, but I did send him an Alaska Goodie box as a bonus !!!

 

[mostpeople]

Oh man that's awesome! Wonder if he's still making them?

 

[STG-Phil]

PTR44 thoughts

Hi to all--just joined the forum today. Wanted to pass along a few thoughts. First, non-custom made 125 grain 8mm pointed bullet molds seem hard to find. My plan is to buy an 8mm mold in a larger bullet grain that is listed in a mold-makers catalog (thinking 160 or 185 grain) with the right bullet shape and then have a friend with a milling machine take off the top 3/16th of the aluminum mold and instantly create a 7.92x33 bullet mold in 125 to 135 grains. No custom-made extra charges, no delay, no not quite right bullet profiles etc. For those who say just buy mold #94 from NEI, they appear to have disconnected their phone.

Another thought--the mags that came with the ptr44--maybe the problem is the position of the mag catch cut-out. Compared 6 original mags to several repro mags and the cut-out for the mag catch appears to be about 15 thousandths too near the top of the mag on the repros.

Also, have a good condition complete original mp44 trigger housing assembly--will trade for an original bolt. Or, will consider trading away one of my original mp44 mags.

Let me know your thoughts to any of the above. Ps--I love my ptr44. Phil

 

[shortfal]

mold

Hi to all--just joined the forum today. Wanted to pass along a few thoughts. First, non-custom made 125 grain 8mm pointed bullet molds seem hard to find. My plan is to buy an 8mm mold in a larger bullet grain that is listed in a mold-makers catalog (thinking 160 or 185 grain) with the right bullet shape and then have a friend with a milling machine take off the top 3/16th of the aluminum mold and instantly create a 7.92x33 bullet mold in 125 to 135 grains. No custom-made extra charges, no delay, no not quite right bullet profiles etc. For those who say just buy mold #94 from NEI, they appear to have disconnected their phone.

Another thought--the mags that came with the ptr44--maybe the problem is the position of the mag catch cut-out. Compared 6 original mags to several repro mags and the cut-out for the mag catch appears to be about 15 thousandths too near the top of the mag on the repros.

Also, have a good condition complete original mp44 trigger housing assembly--will trade for an original bolt. Or, will consider trading away one of my original mp44 mags.

Let me know your thoughts to any of the above. Ps--I love my ptr44. Phil

Sorry to hear about NEI. I have a 2 cavity and was thinking about getting a 6? I heard the original owner got gone or died and a relative took over. I dealt with the later for my 2 cav. but it's been about 3 years.
Nice mold but it'd be good if it cast a thou or 2 larger for the lino or harder alloys that cast smaller than the softer ones.
Milling a Lee or other mold is a good idea but you'd lose the recess for gas checks.
Right re the mag catch lip. I've done several of the aftermarket mags. I slotted right along the existing lip, tacked a piece of 4130 in and milled a bit if the .040 to .050 I put in was too much. If they lock in just as they bottom against the top of the well they usually feed ok so long as there is not too much fore and aft rock. Sweat soldering thin sheet metal on the front fixes that if needed.
Pete

 

[STG-Phil]

PTR44 Thoughts #2

Sorry to hear about NEI. I have a 2 cavity and was thinking about getting a 6? I heard the original owner got gone or died and a relative took over. I dealt with the later for my 2 cav. but it's been about 3 years.
Nice mold but it'd be good if it cast a thou or 2 larger for the lino or harder alloys that cast smaller than the softer ones.
Milling a Lee or other mold is a good idea but you'd lose the recess for gas checks.
Right re the mag catch lip. I've done several of the aftermarket mags. I slotted right along the existing lip, tacked a piece of 4130 in and milled a bit if the .040 to .050 I put in was too much. If they lock in just as they bottom against the top of the well they usually feed ok so long as there is not too much fore and aft rock. Sweat soldering thin sheet metal on the front fixes that if needed.
Pete

Pete, thanks for the comments. In fact, I have very much enjoyed reading your various past mp44/ptr44 comments.

As to cutting down an 8mm mold for the 7.92x33 bullet, my thoughts are not to worry about cutting off the gas check at the end, because I plan to powder coat the bullets. Lots of You Tube videos over the last year on the wonders of powder coating bullets and then baking for twenty minutes in a $30 toaster oven. Very hard finish. Essentially no leading at 2,000 plus fps. Now that Hornady 125 grain bullets are hard to get, we can make for ourselves a very viable 125 grain substitute. Has anyone tried a 150 or so grain bullet? I'd like a heavier bullet that would be slower so as to not gouge the steel plates at the range I use. I know we need to keep the pressures up enough to ensure functionality. My thought was to try 150 grains with the same powder measurement as 125 grains. Safe?


Changing subjects, am looking for a Mp44 original bolt and op. rod. Can buy or trade other WW2 gun parts. Thanks, Phil

 

[sprat]

a bolt was just sold today on gun broker for over $ 500 it was a nice one too

I am looking for a front sight base and gas block if you have extra's

 

[STG-Phil]

Thoughts #3

a bolt was just sold today on gun broker for over $ 500 it was a nice one too

I am looking for a front sight base and gas block if you have extra's

Think I saw a sight base on gb yesterday--a bit rough though.

Does anyone else remember Jerry from Recon Ord. saying that the PTR44 had one or two more 922r parts than were needed? Question to the Group--What is the understanding if a part breaks 7 years after importing and sale and is replaced with an original german part? Legal? Illegal? Phil

 

[sprat]

Think I saw a sight base on gb yesterday--a bit rough though.

Does anyone else remember Jerry from Recon Ord. saying that the PTR44 had one or two more 922r parts than were needed? Question to the Group--What is the understanding if a part breaks 7 years after importing and sale and is replaced with an original german part? Legal? Illegal? Phil

rough sight base it is and cut through the bottom also thanks it has been up on GB for about a month

replacing PTR-44 part with original parts?

I will let others get into what they did, but if you read the beginning to end of this thread, this is exactly what PTR-44 owner had to do

 

[shortfal]

legal?

Think I saw a sight base on gb yesterday--a bit rough though.

Does anyone else remember Jerry from Recon Ord. saying that the PTR44 had one or two more 922r parts than were needed? Question to the Group--What is the understanding if a part breaks 7 years after importing and sale and is replaced with an original german part? Legal? Illegal? Phil

That's a interesting quandary. Thinking the law if one wants to call it a law is actually an interpretation of the law by ATF.
I do not have it here in front of me but I believe the wording is "It shall be illegal to assemble" a rifle with more than 10 imported parts.
So if a part is replaced in a existing gun did the replacer assemble the gun? Does 922 only apply to the manufacturer or builder of the gun? It is said that no one has been busted for non 922 compliance in all the years it's been in effect.
Tired thoughts well past midnight!
Pete

 

[shortfal]

loading

Pete, thanks for the comments. In fact, I have very much enjoyed reading your various past mp44/ptr44 comments.

As to cutting down an 8mm mold for the 7.92x33 bullet, my thoughts are not to worry about cutting off the gas check at the end, because I plan to powder coat the bullets. Lots of You Tube videos over the last year on the wonders of powder coating bullets and then baking for twenty minutes in a $30 toaster oven. Very hard finish. Essentially no leading at 2,000 plus fps. Now that Hornady 125 grain bullets are hard to get, we can make for ourselves a very viable 125 grain substitute. Has anyone tried a 150 or so grain bullet? I'd like a heavier bullet that would be slower so as to not gouge the steel plates at the range I use. I know we need to keep the pressures up enough to ensure functionality. My thought was to try 150 grains with the same powder measurement as 125 grains. Safe?


Changing subjects, am looking for a Mp44 original bolt and op. rod. Can buy or trade other WW2 gun parts. Thanks, Phil

FWIW I've loaded 8Kurz a lot over the last 4 or so years with 125gr. Hornadys as well as cast, gas checked and HiTech coated. Never messed with powder coat as the HiTech works well. No spraying or standing boolits on end.
Interesting that if I load much beyond the low end loads in the Hornady manual I get pretty flat primers (CCI mil spec). I'd sure not start with 125 gr. charges and 150gr. boolits.
Have seen reference to using 150 gr but do not recall any reports on results.
Thinking if a 150 gr. is pushed into the Kurz case far enough to fit in the mag the taper of the boolit might be such that you run out of diameter to maintain neck tension. I think I tried playing around with some pulls from Turkish 8MM (150 gr.) and saw that. But it's been a while.
Pete

 

[sprat]

FWIW I've loaded 8Kurz a lot over the last 4 or so years with 125gr. Hornadys as well as cast, gas checked and HiTech coated. Never messed with powder coat as the HiTech works well. No spraying or standing boolits on end.
Interesting that if I load much beyond the low end loads in the Hornady manual I get pretty flat primers (CCI mil spec). I'd sure not start with 125 gr. charges and 150gr. boolits.
Have seen reference to using 150 gr but do not recall any reports on results.
Thinking if a 150 gr. is pushed into the Kurz case far enough to fit in the mag the taper of the boolit might be such that you run out of diameter to maintain neck tension. I think I tried playing around with some pulls from Turkish 8MM (150 gr.) and saw that. But it's been a while.
Pete

along the same thought pattern when the cheap 7.62 x 51mm ( 308) 148 grain gi pulled projectiles came out ( during the clinton era) I reloaded the 7,62 x 39mm with these 148 grain. They fit in the mag fine, but as Pete indicated they need to pushed deep, barely crimped . but they worked. I decided to stick with the 124gr

The important thing is it worked

 

[STG-Phil]

PTR44 Thoughts #4

along the same thought pattern when the cheap 7.62 x 51mm ( 308) 148 grain gi pulled projectiles came out ( during the clinton era) I reloaded the 7,62 x 39mm with these 148 grain. They fit in the mag fine, but as Pete indicated they need to pushed deep, barely crimped . but they worked. I decided to stick with the 124gr

The important thing is it worked

Thanks Sprat and Pete--before trying a 150 grain bullet I will carefully look into bullet seating and crimping and back-off from 21.3 grains of IMR4227 (Pete's suggested loading in a previous message) to 19 grains or so.

New Thought--has anyone ever been concerned that the mp44 is designed in such a way that a huge slot for the barrel to receiver pin is drilled about a 1/16th (guess) below the bullet chamber. All that pressure and very little barrel steel to contain it. Of course, it works and has for 70 years--but still doesn't seem the greatest idea to drill a big slot in the barrel steel right below a chambered 8mm round. I am sure the barrel pin must help in adding strength. Still it seems like an engineering weakness to me.

Changing subjects--I have several zf4 original scopes that are a bit cloudy inside. Anyone know anyone who can take apart and clean?

 

[mostpeople]

STG Phil,

I recently had a zf4 overhauled, pm inbound.

 

[shortfal]

pin groove

Thanks Sprat and Pete--before trying a 150 grain bullet I will carefully look into bullet seating and crimping and back-off from 21.3 grains of IMR4227 (Pete's suggested loading in a previous message) to 19 grains or so.

New Thought--has anyone ever been concerned that the mp44 is designed in such a way that a huge slot for the barrel to receiver pin is drilled about a 1/16th (guess) below the bullet chamber. All that pressure and very little barrel steel to contain it. Of course, it works and has for 70 years--but still doesn't seem the greatest idea to drill a big slot in the barrel steel right below a chambered 8mm round. I am sure the barrel pin must help in adding strength. Still it seems like an engineering weakness to me.

Changing subjects--I have several zf4 original scopes that are a bit cloudy inside. Anyone know anyone who can take apart and clean?

No worry about the pin groove. If we think about it the AK's are very similar, even the .308 AK variant is thin at the groove. The pin supports that area and it is in turn supported by the barrel extension/trunion.
What is a problem though is if the groove is to be welded for recutting for headspace correction or fitting a barrel mismatch.
A copper slug is made, ctg. case size to use as backup inside the chamber. Otherwise it's almost a given that the weld dropthrough could intrude into the chamber. Not anything I'd want to try fixing with a chamber reamer.
Pete

 

[STG-Phil]

No worry about the pin groove. If we think about it the AK's are very similar, even the .308 AK variant is thin at the groove. The pin supports that area and it is in turn supported by the barrel extension/trunion.
What is a problem though is if the groove is to be welded for recutting for headspace correction or fitting a barrel mismatch.
A copper slug is made, ctg. case size to use as backup inside the chamber. Otherwise it's almost a given that the weld dropthrough could intrude into the chamber. Not anything I'd want to try fixing with a chamber reamer.
Pete

Pete, thanks for the perspective on the barrel pin groove. That leads to another concern. Conventional wisdom says never, never weld on a barrel. Of course welding and heat associated can change the steel, hardness etc. However, I have always thought in some circumstances a little welding can be tolerated. For example, cutting off a little bead of weld on a rifle where the barrel is screwed into a receiver to make a drill rifle. Your comment suggests that you agree in some circumstances? Phil

 

[shortfal]

welding

Pete, thanks for the perspective on the barrel pin groove. That leads to another concern. Conventional wisdom says never, never weld on a barrel. Of course welding and heat associated can change the steel, hardness etc. However, I have always thought in some circumstances a little welding can be tolerated. For example, cutting off a little bead of weld on a rifle where the barrel is screwed into a receiver to make a drill rifle. Your comment suggests that you agree in some circumstances? Phil

Not something you really want to do willy nilly but over time it has proven to be OK so far as I have seen. Many if not most dewats have the chambers welded, some more and deeper than others as well as some 44's welded barrel to rec. under the HG. The metallurgy thing re welding on barrel steel is probably something that a metals engineer type would be horrified by. I shoot 2 of my 44's regularly though that both had chambers welded like they meant it. It's been around 4 years of shooting them with no issue re the barrels after I fixed the chambers. I do not happen to have a rifle right now that I welded the groove on, but have done them for guys. I'd probably know if something bad happened to one.
Rebarrel or fix by welding? It's a choice to make.
Pete

 

[STG-Phil]

PTR Thoughts #6

Not something you really want to do willy nilly but over time it has proven to be OK so far as I have seen. Many if not most dewats have the chambers welded, some more and deeper than others as well as some 44's welded barrel to rec. under the HG. The metallurgy thing re welding on barrel steel is probably something that a metals engineer type would be horrified by. I shoot 2 of my 44's regularly though that both had chambers welded like they meant it. It's been around 4 years of shooting them with no issue re the barrels after I fixed the chambers. I do not happen to have a rifle right now that I welded the groove on, but have done them for guys. I'd probably know if something bad happened to one.
Rebarrel or fix by welding? It's a choice to make.
Pete

Pete and All: I have an otherwise very nice original barrel that someone plugged the rear and put a pin through. What a horrible thing to do to a nice mp44 barrel. I don't know if it could be saved by Pete. Pete, do you need it or want it? If so, let me know in a private message. Not interested in money but maybe could trade something.

Changing subjects. Was on Lee's home site, and noticed they have listed at the moment custom 7.92x33 trim dies for $25. Would also need Lee's case trimmer--the drill powered one costs about $25. The one I bought came in Friday and seems nice. Way way cheaper than RCBS prices on MidwayUSA. Also bought NOE's .323 185 grain 5 bullet cavity mold with a bullet profile about the same as the original WW2. Mold is 180 (or 185 grains?) but once 3/16 is milled off the top should be about 125 grains. About $100. Aslo, nice wooden grips on ebay for under $30. All for now, Phil


Changing subjects