Polish Mauser research

[tokarev38]

There were a few crazy people in Polish pre war army that held high positions and made stupid decisions and had weird ideas. One of the higher generals wrote a paper in late 30’s arguing superior position of cavalry lance over pistol.
Not everything was following logic

 

[RyanE]

This is the highest wz29 I've seen. 1939 88842Z. I don't think the estimate of 260k made is going to hold up.

 

[krukster86]

I finally managed to get a crested Wz.29 that I could afford...albeit a "project" rifle that was sporterized.

It is a 1934 dated rifle still with original Polish stock stamps (worn/faded but still there), but missing the handguard, rear sight, rear barrel band, bolt bent down and swept back, and it was drilled/tapped for a Lyman peep sight. However, all parts that are present that were originally serialized do match: Barrel, receiver, bolt, stock, buttplate. The stock disk is interesting, as it is stamped with N 621 with a C underneath. Typically these were blank right?



The floorplate, triggerguard, follower, and front band are un-serialized as was the original configuration, so I don't think it is a German rework.

This will be somewhat of a long term project for me. I am excited to see it take on its final form.

 

[Nick S]

I finally managed to get a crested Wz.29 that I could afford...albeit a "project" rifle that was sporterized.

It is a 1934 dated rifle still with original Polish stock stamps (worn/faded but still there), but missing the handguard, rear sight, rear barrel band, bolt bent down and swept back, and it was drilled/tapped for a Lyman peep sight. However, all parts that are present that were originally serialized do match: Barrel, receiver, bolt, stock, buttplate. The stock disk is interesting, as it is stamped with N 621 with a C underneath. Typically these were blank right?

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The floorplate, triggerguard, follower, and front band are un-serialized as was the original configuration, so I don't think it is a German rework.

This will be somewhat of a long term project for me. I am excited to see it take on its final form.

The marking on the takedown disk is a German naval property mark. The stylized N is for the Nord See fleet.

 

[krukster86]

I have been looking at photos of the Wz.29 receiver markings to note the changes in font and eagle design throughout the years. One thing that I have been noticing from the sample of online photos that I have seen is that the 1931 dated Wz.29's (technically the K29 at this point) tend to have the receiver crest and markings off-set from the 12 o'-clock position enough to be noticeable. I haven't noticed this trend in any other years. Just found this production error interesting and wondering if anyone here has an example of one.

Some photos I have found (compare the centerline of the eagle/text in relation to the centerline of the rear sight/handguard:

 

[krukster86]

Another question for the other Polish collectors. I am curious if there is a reference that provides definitive details regarding the design characteristics of Polish Mauser slings (for the Wz.29 and the Kbk Wz.1898).

I have two slings in my collection that I believe to be correct Polish slings. Both are of the buckle and brass button design, and have a cross-hatch texture to the leather similar to that of a K98k sling, but otherwise no markings.



From googling images of Polish Mauser slings, many times I see the Polish rifles equipped with German WWII K98k slings finagled to work with the sling attachment points or other foreign slings.

From looking at some of my reference books, the sling designs/features are not well covered or photographed. From period photos in those books, the slings I have appear to be correct in terms of overall design, but the photos are in black and white, and there isn't enough detail provided to confirm. Color illustrations hint that the design and color of the sling "hardware" is correct, but there isn't enough detail provided on the texture of the sling.

 

[Fal Grunt]

I have some just like that, but at least one has markings. I thought they were STG or G3 slings or something similar? I can't remember now. I'll see if I can find them and see if I wrote anything down.

 

[krukster86]

I have some just like that, but at least one has markings. I thought they were STG or G3 slings or something similar? I can't remember now. I'll see if I can find them and see if I wrote anything down.

I picked up 3 sling sets on eBay last year that were listed as "post-WW2 German Slings" around 7/8" to 1" wide (noticeably thinner than the example shown above) without any leather texturing, and with a steel button and buckle, but otherwise similar in "look" at $15 a pop. They served as close enough stand-ins for my sling-less Polish Mausers. Not sure if these are the same as the ones you have.

 

[krukster86]

Thread revival?

I’d be curious if others out there have made any headway in research that may help answer some nagging questions about Polish Mausers that I had in the back of my mind:

Karabin Wz.98 (Long Rifle 1922-1924)

1. I have seen at least 2 examples of 1924 PFK Warszawa Wz98s that were converted into a small ring carbine configuration. It looked like the large ring receiver of the Wz.98 was "milled down" to a small ring Karabinek Wz. 1898 (K98) configuration, and an "adapter" piece was added to the receiver to retain the long wooden handguard. Was this part of some experimental conversion program? It seemed like a lot of work to make this configuration that would not be worth the time/money/effort. I haven’t seen these documented in literature (neither Polish or English).

Karabinek Wz.1898 (1925-1931)

1. Were K98s ever made with Polish made stock disks (for disassembling the bolt)? I have one example that has this stock disk, but there is a small Nazi waffenamt, so it must have been added by the Germans. I have seen one other example that has one that is marked with a "D" in a hexagon, a Polish proofmark, so there must have been Polish stock disks for K98s? Maybe this was in later production?
2. I have seen a couple of examples of these carbines that have the Polish eagle, and "FB Radom" stamped on them, but no date. Any reason why these were undated? Export variants?

Karabinek K98-29 Conversions

1. These are a very misunderstood conversion pattern. It is my understanding that when the Wz.29 pattern was adopted, there were workshops in Poland that attempted to convert K98 carbines to the Wz.29 pattern, but this conversion was not financially profitable, and not many were made. Of the several examples that I have seen, they almost always were found and imported outside of Poland (exported to Spain or China) and had different font numbers added to them. Any additional information about where this conversion was done and how many were produced?

Karabinek K29 / Wz.29 (1930-1939)

1. I have seen examples of the K29/Wz.29 with a single piece stock as well as two-piece buttstocks (dovetailed together). It seems that there is no definitive time period where one type was chosen over another. Can this be confirmed or corroborated?
2. Starting in 1932, these rifles changed their serialization from up to four numbers and a lower case letter suffix to up to 5 numbers and an upper case letter suffix. However the upper case letter suffix from the examples I have surveyed sequentially go through suffix letters "M" (1932-1934ish), "P" (1935-1937) or "Z" (1938-1939). I am curious if there is a specific reason why the other alphabetical letters were skipped.
3. I have seen a couple of examples of these rifles that were produced with a Greek letter "Delta" suffix in the serial number (in all cases, they are SCW export blank receiver examples). I understand that with the FB Radom VIS35, this sort of serialization was designated for pistols that didn't meet the strict acceptance criteria of the factory, but were rushed out due to war looming on the horizon in 1939. Is a similar case applicable to rifle parts with this Delta serial letter suffix?

 

[mchome25]

This is a great research idea...wanted to add my 1928 PFK Warsawa K98 Serial #117193. I believe it to be a german rework due to the blued bolt and bolt numbering (tell me if I'm wrong!)...

 

[mchome25]

Bolt pics of above (117193)...

 

[krukster86]

This is a great research idea...wanted to add my 1928 PFK Warsawa K98 Serial #117193. I believe it to be a german rework due to the blued bolt and bolt numbering (tell me if I'm wrong!)...

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Thanks for sharing! It definitely looks like a rework of some sort with the blued bolt and the stamped font on parts. Also it looks like your K98 carbine (small ring receiver) was bedded in a Wz.29 short rifle stock (for a large ring receiver).

 

[mchome25]

Interesting...so a true mutt of a german rework...K98 receiver, wz.29 stock, and K29 bolt as you mentioned in your other thread regarding the bolt.

 

[krukster86]

I would like to start a thread on Polish Mauser serial numbers and data points of original period rifles that are true Polish as issued or German used. NO SPANISH CIVIL WAR, SPORTERIZED, OR POST WAR. I have read over the train wreck on gunboards, and am more confused now more than ever and forgot half of what I read. I can go through previous threads and post links to original rifles. I feel this is a segment of WW2 rifle collecting that has been ignored long enough and is due its proper study with no true credible study. Case in point is the Radom 1930 dated rifles with supposedly 1000 made. I’ve probably seen over 200 different rifles with that code. Doesn’t make sense with survival rates of other original rifles from that era. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Mike

Mike,

After long last, it appears that your question is addressed via a documented reference book. I am working on reading through it now and slowly jotting down notes. There is a section that goes into the initial orders of these short rifles between 1930-early 1931. It is way more than 1,000!

 

[krukster86]

Mike,

After long last, it appears that your question is addressed via a documented reference book. I am working on reading through it now and slowly jotting down notes. There is a section that goes into the initial orders of these short rifles between 1930-early 1931. It is way more than 1,000!

View attachment 409932

I am heavily abbreviating the content from Jędrzej Korbal’s book. Additionally he was able to follow up with me on some clarification questions. I will present it below.

Available documentation from military archives allow for partial reconstruction of the number of Wz.29’s in the Polish Army’s inventory during a limited number of individual years.

On June 12, 1930, the Military Engineering Supply Plant (WZZI) issued order no. 48/Kraj.30-31 concerning the delivery of 46,669 Wz.29's (note for the purposes of this text, I am not differentiating between K29's and Wz.29's). All weapons were to be delivered by March 15, 1931, produced in accordance with the following "batches":

• by June 15, 1930 - 4000 rifles,
• by July 15, 1930 - 4000 rifles,
• by August 15, 1930 - 4000 rifles,
• by September 15, 1930 - 4,000 rifles,
• by October 15, 1930 - 5,000 rifles,
• by November 15, 1930 - 5,000 rifles,
• by December 15, 1930 - 5,000 rifles,
• by January 15, 1931 - 5,000 rifles,
• by February 15, 1931 - 5,000 rifles,
• by March 15, 1931 - 5669 rifles.

As a side note of potential interest, the value of the contract amounted to 12,649,632.45 Polish zloty, or 271.05 Polish zloty per rifle.

On July 7. 1930, the order was amended (final delivery schedule deadline remained the same):

• by July 15, 1930 - 3473 rifles,
• by August 15, 1930 - 2000 rifles,
• by September 15, 1930 - 5600 rifles,
• by October 15, 1930 - 5100 rifles,
• by November 15, 1930 - 5200 rifles,
• by December 15, 1930 - 5,200 rifles,
• by January 15, 1931 - 5600 rifles,
• by February 15, 1931 - 7200 rifles,
• by March 15, 1931 - 2796 rifles

Additionally, on July 17, 1930, WZZI reported that another correction had been made to order 48/Kraj.30-31, transferring part of the production to the Warsaw Rifle Factory (PFK Warszawa). Thus, the delivery schedule was corrected for the second time:

• by July 1, 1930 - 3473 rifles from FB Radom,
• by August 1, 1930 - 1600 rifles from FB Radom and 400 rifles from PFK Warszawa,
• by September 1, 1930 - 5600 rifles from FB Radom,
• by October 1 , 1930 - 5100 rifles from FB Radom,
• by November 1, 1930 - 5200 rifles from FB Radom,
• by December 1, 1930 - 4600 rifles from FB Radom and 600 rifles from PFK Warszawa,
• by 1 January 1931 - 4100 rifles from FB Radom and 1500 rifles from PFK Warszawa,
• by February 1, 1931 - 5200 rifles from FB Radom and 2000 rifles from PFK Warszawa,
• by March 15, 1931 - 2100 rifles from FB Radom and 696 rifles from PFK Warszawa.

IMPORTANT NOTE: From discussion I had with the author after reading this booklet, it was not clear from archival documents if PFK Warszawa assembled the Wz.29 rifles from FB Radom parts, made Wz.29 parts themselves, etc. however it is assumed that this production of rifles from PFK Warszawa in 1930/1931 involved the production of K98-29 "conversions", where small ring K98 carbines were reconfigured into Wz.29 pattern short rifles. This was a short lived project, as a K98-29 conversion of an existing carbine was 1/2 the cost of producing a Wz.29 from scratch, and not cost efficient in the long run.