Polish Mauser research

[RyanE]

My hypothesis on 1930 dated Radom receivers is that they made ton of them and used them through 1931 and potentially until 1932. I have an original 1930 crested Radom k29 rifle with an “a” suffix no signs of German use. Have found a “b” suffix online with the same style of numbering dated 1932. Pics will follow eventually on my recent pickup

Its an interesting idea.

It appears that for Radom K29 marked receivers (which are new wz29 pattern rifles), they may have initially used German SN conventions (1-10000a, 1-10000b, etc.).

1930 K29 SN 8770a
1930 K29 SN 5748d (upside down d, has a Radom K29 bolt 2101d)
1931 K29 7700f
1931 K29 90f

By 1932, the Radom style SN convention is in place.
1932 K29 14999M.
1932 K29 19707M
One interesting anomaly though, a 1932 K29 SN 2216b. Any you have at least one W suffix in 1930 which was X'd out in favor of an 'n'.

I have only seen M, P, and Z SN suffixes on the later 30s guns. They probably went to 100,000 in both M and P. Z stops in the 50K range, maybe? So, 250K plus whatever was made 1930-1931?

 

[RyanE]

The 1932s

 

[learjet]

heres a 1930 K29. one thing i have wondered about is the 2 on the buttplate. interesting to see 14999M above has it as well. this one appears to be in original Polish condition

 

[rockisle1903]

Sorry for so long to reply....My job thing gets in the way....Lol....Anyway here is the rifle I picked up a 1930 Radom duffle cut but unfortunately sanded during repair....a block suffix serial 7073

 

[rockisle1903]

More pics...

 

[krukster86]

Gorgeous looking rifle Rockisle1903, congratulations on the pickup.

 

[rockisle1903]

Next rifle is a 1932 dated that I have owned previously, german used, with typical 5 digit numbering used until 1939...Notice how all the numbering changed from vertical to horizontal, bad thing about german used rifles is what parts were originally numbered and which ones weren't.....

 

[rockisle1903]

A big thanks to Ryan E for all his data points he has contributed to move this thread forward

 

[Jakeman664]

WZ98a 17042 Ws1 Wels Depot rework . Bolt mm but duffle cut under the rear band. My suspicion is it was assembled post Polish surrender as the stock, barrel, and receiver are only Polish parts, the barrel bands, rear sight and base, ejector, and screws are all German replacement parts. Crest is also scrubbed.

 

[krukster86]

Its an interesting idea.

It appears that for Radom K29 marked receivers (which are new wz29 pattern rifles), they may have initially used German SN conventions (1-10000a, 1-10000b, etc.).

1930 K29 SN 8770a
1930 K29 SN 5748d (upside down d, has a Radom K29 bolt 2101d)
1931 K29 7700f
1931 K29 90f

By 1932, the Radom style SN convention is in place.
1932 K29 14999M.
1932 K29 19707M
One interesting anomaly though, a 1932 K29 SN 2216b. Any you have at least one W suffix in 1930 which was X'd out in favor of an 'n'.

I have only seen M, P, and Z SN suffixes on the later 30s guns. They probably went to 100,000 in both M and P. Z stops in the 50K range, maybe? So, 250K plus whatever was made 1930-1931?

RyanE, do you have more detailed photos of your bolt (serial number 2106 a or d)? It is VERY rare to find Wz29's with bent bolts. In fact, my post here caused some feathers to be ruffled on GunBoards, as the authors of a Polish language book on Polish Mausers all but claim that there were no bent bolt Wz29's in Polish service, despite the stocks being cut out for one. I would like to see some good legitimate example that may disprove this, as the GunBoards thread went nowhere.

 

[RyanE]

RyanE, do you have more detailed photos of your bolt (serial number 2106 a or d)? It is VERY rare to find Wz29's with bent bolts. In fact, my post here caused some feathers to be ruffled on GunBoards, as the authors of a Polish language book on Polish Mausers all but claim that there were no bent bolt Wz29's in Polish service, despite the stocks being cut out for one. I would like to see some good legitimate example that may disprove this, as the GunBoards thread went nowhere.

I think the cav models were supplied with bent bolts. Why bother with bolt cutouts if they never made any?

The examples I posted aren't mine. I only have one wz29, a 1935. I do have more photos of the bolt though. Recent auction. Clearly Polish, and it doesn't look like Bubba work to me. Could be out of a K98 I guess, but the d looks identical.

 

[krukster86]

Much appreciated, thanks. I agree, it does not look like the work of Bubba, and clearly Polish marked.

 

[Warrior1354]

I agree with Ryan on that statement why bother with a bolt cut if you were never going to have a bent bolt installed in them. It doesn't make any sense why waste the time and effort? What makes better sense is having a straight bolt for infantry, and a bent bolt for Calvary units. But having a bolt cut out in the stock for both weapons. Instead of having two different types of stock sets being produced. One for straight bolts, and one for bent bolts. You could just do one stock set with the bolt cut out, and be done with it.

 

[pwcosol]

Here is a URL with photos of my Wz29 (posts #32 & 33):
Wz29 FB RADOM | 1936 Sn 36162 P

Post up yer Mil surp bolt gunz

www.theakforum.net

From my files, Polish rifles I once owned:
1. K98 FB RADOM | 1928 Sn 72595 German reissue/mods.
2. Wz98a FB RADOM | 1937 Sn 35188 "long rifle" as issued.
3. Wz31 FB RADOM | 1933 Sn 8718 (Kbk S Wz31 .22 trainer).

 

[Fal Grunt]

Why bother with bolt cutouts if they never made any?

I agree with Ryan on that statement why bother with a bolt cut if you were never going to have a bent bolt installed in them. It doesn't make any sense why waste the time and effort?

At the time the pattern stock used would likely have been steel. I am foggy on this part of history, but wouldn't most of the tooling come from Danzig? Or other German arsenals? The time and cost to make a new pattern, get the machine dialed in, and up and running for the design change was likely deemed to be not worthwhile.

Remember, while the machine that profiles the outside of the stock is down, (or the several machines) the rest of the production line cannot run. Anyway you cut it, in a production environment, one small change is potentially very expensive and time consuming.

That portion of the cut in the stock probably took a few seconds...

 

[pwcosol]

Two things come to mind about the stock bolt cut-out. The poles were transitioning to the Wz29 from the K29 pattern. Perhaps the intent was some of the Wz29s were to be of cavalry pattern with turned-down bolts. I once saw a transitional Polish rifle having elements of both K29 & Wz29, which was in the hands of Ken Harfman at the Houston Astro-Hall show in the 1980s. He stated it was a rare Polish rifle. The second thing is we see the same mentality with all Polish P35s bearing a slotted mainspring housing to accept a shoulder stock, when only a very small number for testing were ever made.

 

[krukster86]

Another example of Polish "vestigial" features: The Wz.28 pattern bayonets, which are designed for the Wz.98 and Wz.29 rifles, were fitted with flashguards, even though muzzle flash damaging the grips is impossible given the mounting position of the bayonet on these rifles (and since there is a muzzle ring, these wouldn't be fitted to a Kbk Wz. 1898).

 

[RyanE]

At the time the pattern stock used would likely have been steel. I am foggy on this part of history, but wouldn't most of the tooling come from Danzig? Or other German arsenals? The time and cost to make a new pattern, get the machine dialed in, and up and running for the design change was likely deemed to be not worthwhile.

Remember, while the machine that profiles the outside of the stock is down, (or the several machines) the rest of the production line cannot run. Anyway you cut it, in a production environment, one small change is potentially very expensive and time consuming.

That portion of the cut in the stock probably took a few seconds...

I think some machinery at PFK Watszawa came from Danzig, but I think Paul said once it wasn't much. I'll have to see if I can find the thread.

You might be right, but it seems the cut for the bolt cutout is really easy to just skip of you arent shipping bent bolts. Easier than changing the dies and tooling for the P35 frames, but the stock slot on the P35 is a fair point. Could also be that the Poles were planning to eventually field shoulder stocks and wanted to keep their options open, but who knows.

 

[Pat]

Agree on the dual utility of bolt cut-outs. The Yugoslavs did the same with the Model 1924 Type I and II carbines, but the relief cut was much less pronounced.

 

[pwcosol]

Another example of Polish "vestigial" features:

Yes, I think this is the word that captures it in a nutshell...