Third Party Press

Loewe 1890 Gew.88- Nazi Marked

"This rifle makes no sense and I have no explanation for why it exists."
Add a nazi stamp in an attempt to increase value.
I wouldn't always underestimate humpers, not all are bad at their malicious craft and they prey on our enthusiasm.
Can you explain why this was bought at gun show set up for $250?

I don’t even want to put that in here because a gun should stand on its own rights, but there’s the circumstance so now the profiteering theory is dead.

I can’t fault anyone for believing the Nazi stamp is fake, though I disagree, I have no explanation for it or proof that it’s good. And I agree it makes no sense. But when you try to say the serial numbers are fake I will debate you because there’s clear evidence they're not. And as bill pointed out the two stamps show similar age…
 
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No one would look twice at this rifle if not for that Nazi stamp haha. A strong source of contention. I'm stumped as well. I was just reading Volume I of K98k the other day on reworks and it states that the Gew 88 was finally downgraded as obsolete BEFORE Hitler rose to power and removed from inventory. Whether this was picked back up from commercial sales at the end of the war for desperation use, who knows? The rifle simple lacks a full trail for us to follow. Leaving us with scattered data points that are difficult to string together.

EDIT: Photo snippet of the fate of Gew 88 rifles from K98k Vol. I.

Goes on to state in the section of Modified Gewehrs that only the G98M saw continued use in the Reichswher (along with the Kar98b). The Kar98a saw no improvements and was really only held for police use.
 

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Can you explain why this was bought at gun show set up for $250?

Therefore it is completely legit?
Who knows perhaps the person adding the marking was not satisfied with their work and wanted to move it along?
Maybe it came in a bundle of rifles through an auction house and the buyer just got this one in a package deal?
It could have changed hands several times since the stamp was applied?
Who knows...
Its yours, you like, carry on.
 
Can you explain why this was bought at gun show set up for $250?

Therefore it is completely legit?
Who knows perhaps the person adding the marking was not satisfied with their work and wanted to move it along?
Maybe it came in a bundle of rifles through an auction house and the buyer just got this one in a package deal?
It could have changed hands several times since the stamp was applied?
Who knows...
Its yours, you like, carry on.
Could be, but we are really getting into narrow speculative scenarios now which seem just about as likely as it just being real 🤷‍♂️

In any case, I didn’t expect everyone to like it which is fine. I am still curious if anyone is able to identify the other fake eagles on the stock
 
First off as a “boomer”, I shouldn’t even post as apparently that is a disqualification for having a legitimate opinion.

Yes I found the boomer comments to be both irreverent to the subject at hand, and personally offensive.

Now on to the rifle. Whenever a rifle shows up that varies from accepted norms, it should be viewed with healthy skepticism. If and when more supporting evidence surfaces, that skepticism will evolve to acceptance by those with an open mind. I see this rifle in the same category as a modified Standard Modell that I posted in 2014. If differed from acceptable norms in various ways, most prominently in have a number matching K98k stock. In my original post I stated my belief that it was a postwar alteration despite stock numbering fronts having a correct appearance. For seven years I considered it a collection of parts, and kept it only for the SM barreled receiver. In March of this year Bruce posted an example he acquired, and information on another. With three examples in the same sn range, I think the consensus shifted to legitimate variation. I think something similar would need to occur to verify this rifle.

The current arguments attempting to justify this rifle seem curious to me. Paraphrasing, one seems to be, “there is so much wrong with this rifle no good faker would make those mistakes.” Based on that premise, I sold a legit SS rifle for less than $500 a few weeks ago, because no faker would add multiple skulls to a midway rifle, so it must be good.

The other side of this argument is all the markings other than the NS Eagle are consistent with legitimate Imperial reworks, therefore the NS marking must be legit. In my 32 years of working for a fortune 100 company, I soon found the most likely answer to an unusual problem, is the easiest one. In this case someone added a NS eagle to an otherwise legitimate Imperial rework, why? Easy answer, profit motive.

More practical considerations, as was already mentioned, the Gew.88 was obsolete by 1918. Many of these were given by Germany as aid to Turkey during the war. And ,speculation on my part, having been largely withdrawn from active duty units, these would have been among the first rifles destroyed to pacify the Allied Commission. While obsolete weapons were retained and rebuilt for police units these seem to be largely carbines, more suited to their use.

I do not claim to be an expert on Imperial era arms, and welcome any correction, two other aspects of this rifle cause me concern. The rear sling attachment point has been modified from the German detachable swivel type to a conventional attachment commonly seen on Gew 88s used post war by other countries. The NS Eagle, call it a proof, acceptance mark or depot mark is applied 90 degrees from the way most German stock markings, Imperial or NS are typically applied.
It would also be interesting to see the buttplate to see what if any Imperial reworks are indicated there.

To sum up this lengthy post. My opinion would closely parallels that of Chris, with the major difference (again I paraphrase) while he agrees
with most aspects of the rifle, but not %100 sure of the legitimacy of the NS marking.
I agree with most aspects but not %100 sure of the bogus NS marking.
 
First off as a “boomer”, I shouldn’t even post as apparently that is a disqualification for having a legitimate opinion.

Yes I found the boomer comments to be both irreverent to the subject at hand, and personally offensive.
To everyone: I'll make a general statement here. Let's keep this debate to the rifle in question. The initial flurry of replies were pointed and snowballed toward attacks on both sides. I'm not censoring anything--nor will I ever-- but let's keep it civil.

That being said, I appreciate the thoughtful reply Frank. I think healthy skepticism is warranted and reasonable. I stand by my earlier analysis. I feel good about the majority of this rifle, save the NS stamp. Though the stamp and the illegible characters beneath it- maybe a "g" and an "a" (see pic) give me some pause in dismissing off hand. The large goofy NS-era Magdeburg style font in conjunction with the eagle is something that also causes pause in dismissing 100% (for me anyway)
eagle.png
I will also add the link to the original post. One theory mentioned is that maybe this ended up elsewhere at the end of WW1 and was re-added to German service after wherever it ended up was conquered by Germany. That might explain the NS stamp if it was reinspected. I'm not sure I subscribe to that, but might explain the sling loop. Anyway, just adding to make part of the discussion for posterity. The consensus then was suspicious, but nobody seemed to be 100% either way.

 
I don't really have much to contribute on this particular rifle, but I'll make two observations:

1) you can find just about anything in Volkssturm service. Just page through google image searches of the term and you've got everything from the normal German military weapons on through hunting rifles, Carcanos, Kar98a's (maybe polish K98s, hard to tell from the photo), I've even got a pic on a hard drive somewhere of an old guy with a Lewis gun.

2) people absolutely will slap a stamp on some random old gun to try and give it that Volkssturm appeal and draw in the WW2 collector. Carcanos were really bad about that a few years ago.
 
I want everybody to know. Last year at the 2022 SOS show. I found a nazi era depot stamp on a french gras rifle. Me, and mike both looked at it. It was a decent stamp, and it was not a legitimate one either. But, someone still bought it for almost a thousand dollars.
 
But, it still boggles the mind why the germans were still using Gewehr 98 rifles with the older style rear sights? Especially when those were obsolete by the 1920s. As far as period photographs of the commission 88 series of rifles or carbines in use. I've only been able to locate police units with the kar88 in photographs.
 

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I am making a guess, but what if the eagles on the right side and on the underside are Polish? There are similarities.

Screenshot_20230612-144917~3.png23 copy 2.jpg

Again, flat guess, but it bears at least mentioning. If it were in Polish hands and captured by Germans during the invasion/occupation, maybe it was sent through Magdeburg or another depot for re-inspection and stored.

Just thinking out loud. No presumption that I'm right.
 
I don't have to much substantive to say, but for what its worth I think its legit. The proofs and reworked stock serial look pretty standard to me, and that was demonstrated by posts by Jory and Chris. Futhermore, a Gew88 with TR era depot work just doesn't seem all that outlandish. We all known the Germans put a myriad of odd ball stuff into service. It doesn't seem that strange that some Gew88's would be included in that. Its a mass produced former German service rifle chambered in their own propretery cartridge. Certainly something they could find a use for, especially later on. Could it be fake? Sure, it totally could, and I wouldn't put it past fakers to do so. But other than it being a bit 'weird', I don't see any thing that stands out as being not legit.
 
I am making a guess, but what if the eagles on the right side and on the underside are Polish? There are similarities.

Again, flat guess, but it bears at least mentioning. If it were in Polish hands and captured by Germans during the invasion/occupation, maybe it was sent through Magdeburg or another depot for re-inspection and stored.

Just thinking out loud. No presumption that I'm right.

Ex-Polish was my thinking also, but I have never seen a Polish gun marked like this. So I don't know. Honestly, I think those markings are more interesting than the NS ones.

I do think the added SN is consistent with other known depot pieces. The depot stamp may or may not be good, with the lettering illegible its hard to make a good call. I would lean towards this one being good.
 
You know, after thinking about it for a minute, I am wondering if those eagles might be a very early Erfurt factory rework acceptance? I think it was not uncommon to use a single digit for the date 1900-1909. The eagle one the side appears to be over a 5, so possibly reworked to the 88/05 standard in 1905, possibly at Erfurt? The eagles, especially the one on the bottom, kinda looks like Erfurt.

Just a thought.
 

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FWIW I am skeptical of the nazi eagle myself. However, I believe it stands a good chance of being original for the same reasons mentioned by Chris.

Here are some res photos of the eagle: https://ibb.co/album/9bGsnb

Looks like maybe Ka, Kg, Mg? Magdeburg makes the most sense as their font is identical to that which Jory posted
 

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You know, after thinking about it for a minute, I am wondering if those eagles might be a very early Erfurt factory rework acceptance? I think it was not uncommon to use a single digit for the date 1900-1909. The eagle one the side appears to be over a 5, so possibly reworked to the 88/05 standard in 1905, possibly at Erfurt? The eagles, especially the one on the bottom, kinda looks like Erfurt.

Just a thought.
Ryan, that was my initial thought when Rob showed me the rifle last year-- it looked like the Thuringian eagle used by Erfurt (and the Consortium who had inspection teams on loan from them)

The only fly in the ointment on the 88/05 theory is that that rifle lacks the plug-welded charger clip guides on the receiver bridge, so this isn't an 88/05 . I think the whole barrel shroud is from an 88/05 and they only bothered force matching the shroud.Note the sight comparison below-- it's definitely an 88/05 sight assembly. The m/m small parts lend more credence to legitimacy, IMO. Rear sight components were seldom renumbered in imperial depots (but it did happen)
Gew 88 Sight Comparison.jpg
 
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You know, after thinking about it for a minute, I am wondering if those eagles might be a very early Erfurt factory rework acceptance? I think it was not uncommon to use a single digit for the date 1900-1909. The eagle one the side appears to be over a 5, so possibly reworked to the 88/05 standard in 1905, possibly at Erfurt? The eagles, especially the one on the bottom, kinda looks like Erfurt.

Just a thought.
I very much like the idea of it indicating some form work. Or a potential property marking. The snip is a segment done by Still’s, taken from Gortz.

“Orders dated 23 July 1918 state: APreviously, auxiliary pistols were identified as army property by means of the inspection commissions stamp, usually located on the left side of the trigger guard. Recently the marking (Prussian eagle in the largest possible size) has been shifted to the front of the trigger guard. - All army high commanders etc. are requested to take the necessary steps that all pistols being currently in use by troops and not verifiably held in private ownership, are additionally stamped by military armorers with the same marking.” @(Görtz and Bryans, German Small Arms Markings, page 129)

IMG_5789.jpeg
 
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Ryan, that was my initial thought when Rob showed me the rifle last year-- it looked like the Thuringian eagle used by Erfurt (and the Consortium who had inspection teams on loan from them)

The only fly in the ointment on the 88/05 theory is that that rifle lacks the plug-welded charger clip guides on the receiver bridge, so this isn't an 88/05 . I think the whole barrel shroud is from an 88/05 and they only bothered force matching the shroud.Note the sight comparison below-- it's definitely an 88/05 sight assembly. The m/m small parts lend more credence to legitimacy, IMO. Rear sight components were seldom renumbered in imperial depots (but it did happen)

Sure, but that stock isn't original to the gun. The stock is 5559 (and it looks like the same is scratched in pencil also).
 
Sure, but that stock isn't original to the gun. The stock is 5559 (and it looks like the same is scratched in pencil also).
Good point. Salvaged stock, duh. 🤦🏻‍♂️ The imperial part of my brain was going "not 88/05"

FWIW I've seen plenty of depot 88s with force matched c/S "S" conversion stocks, so they didn't necessarily care about removing the conversion identifying marking (though Ive seen a few that have it "x'ed" out)

The 88/05s got small size c/letter mark on the stock on the right side above the royal cypher. It's possible Erfurt converted some and marked them differently, but I've no proof of that-- yet anyway.
IMG_20211202_203140826~2.jpg
 
I decided to stay out of this but Chris and I discussed this yesterday, - mostly my desire is to keep this a civil disagreement (stop laughing coming from me... but this is our forum and I respect both Bill and Rob as serious collectors and hope they can at least "moderate" their replies) as Chris stated we will not censor but in return we expects a minimum of courtesy is maintained.

As I told Chris, I have serious doubts about this rifle's authenticity, especially the stock markings, these have been pointed out with some good thoughts. I still think the stock is bad, it doesn't fit any pattern I have seen, though if an HZa can be determined under the eagle, maybe, but I would like it to be clearly identified and follow known patterns. I largely agree that never seeing a similar case is proof of nothing, but a G88, unmodified, surviving 1919-1924 destruction totals is stretching the imagination... the Germans (during the early republic) destroyed the crap first (totals were reported and accepted by the Entente before inspectors were present, it was generally acknowledged the junk was well represented, and a G88 would have been prime fodder, further paramilitary stashes probably had a low population of obsolete rifles, even communist and national socialist dirtbags would stick their noses up on a G88 - there was no shortage of G98 and 98a in 1919-1924, new rifles were plentiful in depots).

The key is the weird eagle, never seen a Polish G88 to my recollection, but that eagle is not Republican (and one of my main concerns initially), maybe Polish? Maybe a Polish collector has some insight, but I would expect if Polish there would be more clues as Poles were notable for a plethora of queer markings all over the rifles they reworked. I am pretty sure this is a bad rifle, at least in its stock, but I hope everyone can keep it respectful; I know Bill well and Rob enough to respect him as a good man and collector, so follow Chris request to keep ridicule to a minimum (and an open mind)

BTW, this rifle has been around since 2016 (pictures attached) so it is not new. I did not save the text then...
 

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