Loewe 1890 Gew.88- Nazi Marked

[flynaked]

I get really tired of “Volkssturm use” being regurgitated to explain rifles or scenarios, but the reality is, it’s often a very likely explanation. The majority of thought and interest in the VK program naturally falls on the interesting crude weapons produced late in the war. However, that aspect of the program required a lot of R&D, money, infrastructure, manpower etc. As we see in photographic evidence these types of weapons clearly did not make up the majority in use. I wouldn’t be surprised in the least to see a Gew88 in late war use, through whatever means of acquisition, capture from another country, partisans etc. I’ve seen documents detailing weapon types, serial etc, of weapons captured from partisans for instance, so there could be no telling where it came from. The myriad of weapons seen towards the end were definitely planned for use as well. According to the cartridge collectors, documents exist for a late order with RWS for hundreds of thousands of obsolescent rounds for these weapons, as well as commercial cartridges with the same intent. I don’t know if this was covered in Desperate Measures or not, I no longer own the book, but it’s an interesting point. I also have a couple boxes of .318 commercial ammunition loaded in lacquered steel cases from late 1944 that possibly provide a tangible link.

Does this rifle have anything to do with that, maybe, maybe not, but it’s certainly possible. I agree if it were a fire proof, I would dismiss it, however it appears to have something below it, I originally thought Kg potentially. The fact that it’s stamped perpendicular to a curved keel probably led to the lower portion of the marking being faint. Yes, we know how markings are generally stamped on German weapons but this isn’t a hard rule that was followed, especially by depots. Look at G12/34’s and Vz-24’s, sometimes the fire proofs are perpendicular for instance. The oxidation within the marking matches perfectly with the keel serial as well. If this was faked it would have been done decades ago IMO, and before the advent of the mass sharing of knowledge on the subject of NS depot practices. Please take this all with a grain of salt as I exclusively collect repro field gear.

 

[jbc98k]

 

[flynaked]

Thanks for the input, everyone deserves a cheerleader!

 

[hale1940]

If this was faked it would have been done decades ago IMO, and before the advent of the mass sharing of knowledge on the subject of NS depot practices.

Clay, this part of your comment really meshed with something thats been on my mind this whole thread. It might ruffle some feathers...but I'll throw it out there none the less.

Early on in the discussion it was suggested that we should just go with the simplest answer, and that answer is the rifle is fake. Basically, its the arguement from parsimony, which granted is often a safe bet. But I want to challenge this a bit. I think sometimes we can be too skeptical, or be skeptical in the wrong way.

First off, I want to say, fakers absolutely will fake anything. We see it all the time. BUT, fakers are generally not irrational monkeys. They have a goal in mind...profit. And what profit actually means is balanced out by ones level of expertise and the amount of effort put into the work itself. This is why most fakes are quite bad, because they are done by someone with little knowledge, putting in little effort, just looking to make a quick buck. We see it all the time on here. The classic is the former nice bolt mm'd K98k, which now has a matchnig bolt using hardware store numbering and cold blue. All the faker needs to do is find someone more ignorant than themselves, and boom, make a nice little profit. However, fakes like that are never meant to fool experts/serious collectors. They are by their very nature aimed at the ignorant.

But, there absolutely are very very good fakers out there. There are people who know what they doing. They have the knowledge, time, equipment and expertise to put together pieces that have a chance of stumping even the best of us. And you know what, they generally put that ability towards the highest value items. Which makes perfect sense. If I know what I'm doing, and I have the ability, why would I waste my time on penuts. This is why we have to be so careful with snipers and SS rifles and such. Sure, there are poorly done fakes of these rifles, but its also where most of the really really good fakes show up too. Because those with the capacity to make really convincing fakes know this is where their efforts are best placed. Its where all the money is at. Its all pretty rational really.

Now we come to the rifle under discussion, and why I'm skeptical that its really so much more of simpler explanation that the rifle is fake. IF its fake, then its a very good fake. Who ever made it really knew what they were doing. Not only that, but they knew what they were doing within a very esoteric field of German arms (i.e. depot rifles). An area of study that only until pretty recently had very little literature or discussion associated with it. Furthermore, they decided to put quite a bit of effort towards building a fraudlent rifle that is, quite frankly, not worth very much. And we know this rifle, in its current form, is from at least 2016...when it would have been worth even less than it is today (and its probably much older). Sure, a genuine WW2 German reworked Gewehr 88 would probably be worth more than a regular Gewehr 88, but that isn't saying much. And its really not saying much if we go back in time, since not all that long ago Gewehr 88's were one of the cheaper milsurps you could by (and still kinda are), and German depot rifles were barely appreciated/understood/valued by anyone.

So it all really begs the question, who would fake this and why? Was it just as an exercise of skill? Did they perhaps find a 'mark' who they just happened to know would oddly pay big bucks for such a piece? Or were they just really into making fakes they likely wouldn't make much, if any, money off of? Or...is it just another example of the Germans engaging in the practice of reusing/reworking old antiquated arms because they were desperate for guns. A practice that is itself quite well documented. In the absence of a smoking gun around it being fake, I definetley lean towards the latter, and I think its actually a much simpler explanation.

 

[Warrior1354]

Hale, I would wonder that too. Who would put the effort to make a fake Nazi depot Gew 88? Why go for a small fish when you could go for a much bigger fish? And then? I think back to that German depot French Gras rifle at the 2022 SOS show for $1000. So it's not out of the realm of possibly. Main reason I raise an eyebrow when I hear the statement. "The only one I have ever seen."

Honestly, I'm not trying to insult Rob's rifle. I just hope members here understand why questions were raised about it.

Now, I do know someone who possibly might have another Gew 88 like this variation. I'll ask the next time I see him, or if he has seen such a rifle. Also if I find any period photographs showing a Gew 88 in German service this late I will share them.

 

[Loewe]

Paul- when i said i respected your opinion I meant it. And though i do think its far fetched to say every marking on the stock is fake, I meant it when i said at least your opinion was consistent. Your thought process, while i disagree with it in this instance, at least makes sense to me.

The gun is especially troublesome when you look at it from a trending perspective. The problem is depot reworks- at least in the 3R era- follow loose trends at best. There are examples that defy logic that pop up regularly and inconsistency in serial fonts, markings, part numbering etc even within the same depots in the same era. I am judging the markings based my own experience and when possible on comparable examples (like the serial numbers that have been shown- and that still pretty much remain unchallenged which is telling). If I looked at it from a trends perspective I would be on board with you.

I know not everyone will like the rifle, though the majority of people did, and my intent is not to force anyone to accept it. Skepticism is warranted. I'm definitely challenging the "I've never seen it so it's fake and I'm right" perspective and also challenging arguments where i see explanations. On your barrel example for instance, i would just point out that the nazi's were literally producing new 8x50R for 50 year old straight pull foreign Mannlichers- thats insane. While I agree the barrel on this is an oddity I dont find it any more insane than that.

As you pointed out, the thread has reached a point of absurdity in discussing pieces of wire and debating circumstances on why the rifle might or might not have existed. I had hoped for a debate about the markings themselves with examples and counter examples posted which we had at one time. Its probably time that i let the thread die (at least until more pertinent information pops up).

Rob, This is the civility I expected from a collector of your experience and judgement, - I really regret this diversion of my limited time for the forum; I was working on some research threads I actually care about and this "argument" is far beyond my interest or intention. I had simply hoped to tone down disagreement between two valued collectors (Bill and yourself) without one or both leaving the forum... just goes to show I have no aptitude to goody two-shoe interventionism...

From now on I will leave the day to day moderating to Chris as this has been quite annoying.

 

[chrisftk]

I'll say this about the thread; the level of engagement was great and people put good thoughts into their responses. The civility improved toward the end despite pointed disagreement. Were many minds changed? Probably not.

I stand by my initial assessment, as I'm sure others have as well. I hold no ill will to those who didn't agree I just hope all members don't take disagreement with their theories personally-- rifles like this (weird and not seen before) will continue to emerge. The results will usually be the same... Some "fake" votes some "possibly real" votes. Let's just keep it above board and approach discussion with humility and an open mind- trolling and insults cheapen good debate. This forum has a good way of policing itself. I've no doubt that will continue. Paul and I are just here as guard rails.

 

[pzjgr]

Interesting thread for sure....

I will make a couple of observations...one thing for sure in this hobby/passion is you can NEVER say never. Odd stuff continually pops up that confounds the logical.

To whit, I will post this thread...

German(?) MAS36

This is a typical late H block MAS36 from April 1940, but with the added small stamp on the bottom of the wrist. I am suspicious of these, but they are out there and very consistent. All are non-import pre-war rifles, in original finish, with a large (and not French) letter stamped on the wrist.

www.k98kforum.com

As related in the thread years and years ago I had a pre-war MAS 36 with these markings, and at the time it sort of written off (and likely rightfully so at the time) as spurious or at least just a random mark...but more of such marked rifles came to light, and current thinking is they are some sort of legit German accepted/inspected rifles. The stamp makes no sense, but there it is.

The other point that has been made multiple times is what is the purpose of throwing a fake stamp on it...typically humpers are doing it for financial gain, but it certainly wasn't the case with my MAS, or does it seem to be with this one.

While odds seem to be in favor of it being some sort of bubba stamp, one cannot strictly dismiss it out of hand. You never know what future guns may come out of the woodwork that may show plausibility...

 

[heavy_mech]

Something I thought regarding the 'how long' and financial motive arguments, I recall the Star B pistols that were enhanced with a NS waf. ORIGINALLY, it was to increase the value and enhance the desirability of these. Later after they were proven faked their price plummeted. Pretty sure that was decades ago.

I think it would be shortsighted to think someone wasn't already making fake stamps decades ago.... long before the e-Shop Ham posted about. Engravers? Tool and Die makers? I also think it's possible some guys did it just to see if they could. And because NS stuff is cool.