"Late war" Krieghoffs

[Absolut]

Got this one today. All matching numbers (for all parts left) 1942 dating Krieghoff 08 with a high 11.8xx serial. I assume the condition can assure you that it is original WWII period. Took the pics prior to cleaning to make sure you see it the same way I got it.

Taking it apart was quite a task, everything stuck as you can guess. But possible. Rubbed it a bit with oil, looks much better right now. Even takedown lever and side plate are still matching numbers on the inside. Might do some more pics later. For whatever reason pic #4 is not uploading, but since this anyway is only a closeup of right toggle acceptance I assume I simply might leave it out.

Edit: I of course only bought it to show it to you in here! You owe me now the price for it. Do you want to pay by cash or can send a sixpack beer?

 

[mrfarb]

Get a better photo of the barrel markings straight down if you would.

 

[RyanE]

Got this one today. All matching numbers (for all parts left) 1942 dating Krieghoff 08 with a high 11.8xx serial. I assume the condition can assure you that it is original WWII period.

I wouldn't go quite that far. If these are fake, they have been around since the 1960s or even earlier. A flood could do this damage.

Also, external numbers on the small parts? None of the "late" HKs have this. The lever, safety and trigger look to have been blued, not strawed? Also "wrong" according to all other examples. Has the weird font that shows up on some of these post 11300 guns (note the 4).

Take as many pics as you can.

 

[Absolut]

Sure, will take more pics. Has a serial atop the takedown lever and inside of side plate. Re colors, as I had mentioned pics taken as brought home. Some things look better once oiled and rust removed, just give me some time.

 

[Guillaume d'Orange]

Sure, will take more pics. Has a serial atop the takedown lever and inside of side plate. Re colors, as I had mentioned pics taken as brought home. Some things look better once oiled and rust removed, just give me some time.

It looks like the pattern of the acceptance stamps on your pistol is similar to the ones on Type E FG42s probably made/assembled in Suhl: starting from the left, first a Weimar eagle, second a BAL2 (contrary to the pistols shown earlier in this thread).
I have no horse in this race, but I can send you some bottles of Alsatian beer

 

[Slash]

I assume the condition can assure you that it is original WWII period.

I would not use the poor condition of any collectable item as a positive measure of originality. In may cases, reproductions of valuable items are artificially aged and/or purposely damaged. Have seen this quite often with S42 tool bayonets as an example ....

 

[Absolut]

I agree that some do artificial aging on items, but do you seriously want to indicate someone aged a reproduction Krieghoff this much simply to pass it on as original?!

Also been shown the papers where the government originally claimed it is no longer a gun that needs a license, but can't remember the year right now. But it was closer to war than current time. Will try to ask and see what year that is. Attached some closeup, now already soaked in oil (before I'll start to clean it). Note the serial on the takedown lever atop, tough to picture without pulling it. But that picture also clearly shows the part was not blued, but the dark finish is due to the general condition it is in.

 

[Frysk]

In this video he talks about a gun collection that was ruined by floods.
Same could have happened with this one..!

 

[Absolut]

That discussion is weird. Of course this one must had been pulled from the water, but why in a flood and why would someone artificially put it to water to make the condition this worse? It was most likely dumped at end of WWII in a lake and pulled by someone years later. These things are common to turn up over here (I'm not on your side of the large pond). I thought we were discussing markings and if these post 1940 Krieghoff pistols are WWII production what to me is now obvious with this pistol.

 

[Frysk]

That discussion is weird. Of course this one must had been pulled from the water, but why in a flood and why would someone artificially put it to water to make the condition this worse? It was most likely dumped at end of WWII in a lake and pulled by someone years later. These things are common to turn up over here (I'm not on your side of the large pond). I thought we were discussing markings and if these post 1940 Krieghoff pistols are WWII production what to me is now obvious with this pistol

I highly doubt someone would drown a pistol to ruin it to the state it is now.
But as in the video stated, it was an accident. It being in the state it is now doesn’t mean that it was in the ground/water since 1945.

 

[Absolut]

I highly doubt someone would drown a pistol to ruin it to the state it is now.
But as in the video stated, it was an accident. It being in the state it is now doesn’t mean that it was in the ground/water since 1945.

I don't care on the video and what happened with the items in there. Read the starting post and the thread title, and read what I wrote in the post above yours:

I thought we were discussing markings and if these post 1940 Krieghoff pistols are WWII production what to me is now obvious with this pistol.

 

[mrfarb]

I’m torn. But the fact remains these pistols do not follow a logical serialized production and are an oddity worth skepticism. I hate to say but finding a relic condition example does not automatically mean it’s legit. It’s data for sure, but not proof.

 

[Absolut]

I hate to say but finding a relic condition example does not automatically mean it’s legit. It’s data for sure, but not proof.

I fully concur with you. This is not a 100% proof. But what are the chances someone artificially aged a pistol this much to be in a condition like this, just to proof late war Krieghoff pistols where the discussion at least in here started only recently? Secondly, theoretically this of course could be a post WWII production. Then again, what is more likely: someone purchasing a post WWII produced Krieghoff pistol which was lost in a flood, or a WWII pistol that was thrown in a lake/river as had happened with millions other items? To me the post war argument with this item is very unlikely and a typical aspect of our current discussions, very theoretical possibilities are mentioned as a counter argument to what is the most logical and obvious thing where you can't rule them out, but everyone knows how little the chances for this is.

 

[mrfarb]

I do agree, the most logical explanation is it’s real. It’s an interesting and important addition to the subject lesson.

 

[RyanE]

I know I am probably belaboring the point, maybe even beating a dead horse, but a few things:

1. How did this pistol get made before Jack's 1943? Is there any explanation at all why HK just randomly pulled SNs out of the air over the years? They just skipped hundreds of SNs for some reason?

HK reached 11300 or so, jumped to something maybe around 11940, finished more pistols including 11994 in 1940, but skipped everything in between? Ignoring the 1941s, they started again around 11600 in 1942 before jumping all the way back to 11300 in 1943? Oh, and during 1942 production, they just skipped over numbers seemingly at random. Why???

A member here has a legit 1940 SN 11281 (numbered with the "normal" correct HK font). Recently, SN 11282 sold at auction and its a 1944! Numbered with the same odd font as this 1942 and 1943. So is 11233, also inexplicably a 1944.


2. Speaking of fonts, the odd font used on both the 1942 and Jack's 1943 is unlike anything used 1934-1940 except for the odd 11900 1940s. Take a look at 11994 posted earlier in the thread. Font matches these later guns with the narrow four, curly ones, and round top 3s. Why does the SN font on 11994 not match literally every single 1940 before 11300?


3. Something else I noticed: these late guns or any that use this odd font, sometimes (maybe often?) use the exact same early BAL2 die with identical damage to the feathers on the right wing. Found on the magazine bottoms, on receivers, sometimes even on the barrel. For years, this same die with this flaw was used on Lugers? One can assume this die was also being used on other things (MG131, whatever) too, right? Stamped maybe thousands of times without being worn out or replaced? Possible I guess?

I did find one maybe two 1940s that appear to use the same stamp with the same damage on the pistol, but the overwhelming majority don't. A couple of early 1940 range magazines have it, but those have the odd font not in use in 1940, so they are suspect. Would the damaged die have survived until 1944? Magazine bottoms could have been leftovers from production in 1940, but I think the second receiver acceptance would have been stamped during assembly. Based on the post-war guns, the late style BAL2 was used as the initial acceptance of the part after being manufactured after 1937/8.

What is really odd that every single magazine that uses the odd font has the broken die. @jack944, can you check your 1943?

See pistol 11337 and 11375 (both 1943s). 11337 uses the odd font on the mags with the broken die. 11375 has the correct HK font on the mags with a normal die, but the pistol is using the odd font and has the broken die on the receiver. Something isn't right here.

4. This 1942 has external numbers on the toggle parts. No other 1942 I can find (or any HK after SN 3000 or so) has this. Certainly looks like it was numbered when it went into the water. That's a problem.

5. I don't think anyone is suggesting someone intentionally damaged this pistol. Just that we have no idea when or how it went in the water.

 

[mrfarb]

There is clearly something "there" with the font issue. Interesting that the missing feather BAL2 only shows up on the odd font parts/mags/guns - clearly 11337 looks wrong compared to 11375. I find in fantastical that they would use 2 fonts on consecutively produced guns. Even looking at the "two matched mag" 11337 pistol it looks suspect.

Makes you wonder- did a faker use that specific stamp to make it obvious to himself which ones he'd faked? One other aspect is the fact Absolute's pistol is overseas, but that in itself isn't proof because in the past (even now) guns are exported overseas.

The more evidence that comes out, the more doubtful I am about anything after 1940.

 

[Absolut]

@RyanE, the simple fact that items do not follow a certain pattern is a thing we sometimes have to accept. I may mention opposite: if Krieghoff pistols, always an object of high desire, would in a very certain serial range be very scarce and not follow any rules, wouldn't that make it perfect to fake? This way you can pick any serial within that range and just get yourself the year of desire done. You don't have to compare charts and do this and that because it anyway is confusing. Years later though when considering fake items to have been done they then make establishing patterns and theories even tougher, because you have to identify the fake ones first and then only look at the convincing ones.
If I asked you to make a theory on how possibly post 1940 dated Krieghoff 08 pistols be made, what would it sound like, if you have to set up one?
@mrfarb I doubt someone would bring a Krieghoff over the big pond, even centuries back they were much more expensive and sought after in the US than over here. You could get them cheaper over here. Plus the imports would had to be fire proofed, of course a single one could escape, but would also be unlikely - and this pistol doesn't carry a modern firing proof. Therefore again a theoretical possibility, but slim chances.

 

[RyanE]

I may mention opposite: if Krieghoff pistols, always an object of high desire, would in a very certain serial range be very scarce and not follow any rules, wouldn't that make it perfect to fake? This way you can pick any serial within that range and just get yourself the year of desire done. You don't have to compare charts and do this and that because it anyway is confusing. Years later though when considering fake items to have been done they then make establishing patterns and theories even tougher, because you have to identify the fake ones first and then only look at the convincing ones.

I think so. Simpsons is currently offering a 1944 SN 11633 for the low price of $17,550. Pics are not good enough to see any of the acceptance though.

KRIEGHOFF 1944 P.08 - C32110

Firearms for the Finest Collectors

simpsonltd.com

This is a more recent fake IMO but it goes to your point about this mess being perfect for fakes.

If I asked you to make a theory on how possibly post 1940 dated Krieghoff 08 pistols be made, what would it sound like, if you have to set up one?

Honestly, I cannot think of any explanation that would even remotely make sense of the serial numbers. Which is the primary problem I have with them.

 

[Slash]

Are there any other Krieghoff produced items (flare guns, MGs, shotguns) with these kind of serial number issues? Why would it be exclusive to the P.08?

I can't think of any other IIIR item with this kind of production serialization anomaly ...... To me, very suspect.

 

[RyanE]

Are there any other Krieghoff produced items (flare guns, MGs, shotguns) with these kind of serial number issues? Why would it be exclusive to the P.08?

I can't think of any other IIIR item with this kind of production serialization anomaly ...... To me, very suspect.

That is a great question. On the flare guns, production at Suhl seemed to end in the early to mid 20,000 range in 1942. It appears that when production moved from Suhl to Belgium (or wherever) in 1943 the SNs for the flare pistols seem to start over at 1. However, it seems that after Belgium was evacuated in 1944, production was moved back to Suhl and restarted. There are undated BAL2 fzs flare guns that seem to pick up where Suhl left off in the mid 20K range and highest SN I can find is low 29k. I think we can tell these undated examples are 1944/1945 production because the Luffwaffe equipment number stamped on all flare guns, Fl.24483, is suddenly changed to L.N.24483. I'd bet that was one of the many pointless late war changes.

I have not dug deeply on these flare guns, but I think the above is more or less correct.

HK MG15 seem more or less consistent. Early have low serial numbers, late have high, but there are hardly enough photographed to know for sure. The 1940 and 1941 examples have the month/year of assembly stamped on them (as did L.O.Dietrich), and I did note one oddity in SN 43907-41 which has a date of 8/42 on the side. Which is weird. 25632-40 is dated 11/40, but 61917-42 and 16736 (dated 1938) do not have the month/year stamped on the side.

Other MGs? Who the hell knows.