K98k with serial number 10000 ?

[Guillaume d'Orange]

Gents,

On a French forum, people are arguing that the serialing of K98k ends at 10000 and not at 9999.
They use pics of Gewehr 98.

98K S/42K

Bonjour à tous, Je vous présente ma nouvelle acquisition. Un 98K S/42K de 1934. Ces points forts: Année et série Arme monomatricule complète Beau canon. Beaux

www.tircollection.com

Has anyone seen or heard about such thing on K98ks ?

 

[AndyB]

What is here strange, normal serialing, the letter range did not end by 9999, when they ordered 100000 pcs so it was delivered 10 ranges per 10000 serial in each range. The possibility found a 10000 is similar to nr.1 also very low, similar is by bayonets and all other weapons normal.

 

[Slash]

The second pic (receiver close-up) is from this forum and had been discussed here:

Serial Number 10,000 rifle

Kind of cool, saw this pop up this morning in one of my searches, ongoing auction so won't post a link yet but easy to find, grabbed a couple pictures from the listing, I've not seen a 10,000 serial number rifle before Nick

www.k98kforum.com

German serial numbers were assigned in blocks of 10000 NOT 9999. This applies to rifles, pistols, machineguns, bayonets, and other small arms. The 9999 block assertion is erroneous but often cited/repeated as fact. As Andrej stated, the possibilities of encountering a 1 or 10000 serial number are quite low. In actuality, a serial number 10000 piece is rarer than a 1 serial number.

 

[Turbo Archie]

Looks like the 0's are machine applied and the 1 added by hand just like my P38.

 

[mrfarb]

Yes, 98k’s went to 10000

 

[Winchester Cowboy]

I wonder what the accuracy rate was due to human error in getting a perfect 1 to 10000 guns numbered with no errors of duplicates repeating or missing a sequence?

Example:

1 2 3 4 5 5 6 7 8 9 and 1 2 3 4 6 8 9 10 11 12

 

[AndyB]

By most serialing when we speak about S84/98 or K98k rifles it was done by serialing mashine, and there was a linked digits in a row, so when ended one collumn with 9, continues to 10 by 2 collumns automatically, same as the back serialing to lower digits could be not possible probably. It was secured only to increasing numbers. Some of the bayonets have done various serialing in 3 digits range.

 

[Hambone]

That serial number looks humper die stamped to me. Maybe I just see humper die stamps everywhere in my imagination. You’d be paranoid too if the humpers were everywhere and out to get you.

 

[mauser99]

the close up looks blurred. I think that's why it looks off.. If they all went to 10000 I'm not sure why more don't turn up ? But. it would be the same amount of attrition as single digit rifle as well.. they just don't show up often.

 

[heavy_mech]

That serial number looks humper die stamped to me. Maybe I just see humper die stamps everywhere in my imagination. You’d be paranoid too if the humpers were everywhere and out to get you.

No, I got the same feeling when I looked at that serial number too.

 

[AndyB]

Clearly nice stamped VCS 1916 from internet. They are similar in quantity as of nr.1 or nr.2 avialable on internet.

 

[Guillaume d'Orange]

Any pic of a 98k with a 10 000 ?

I dug up an old calc of mine: https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/a...-while-10-plus-years.45679/page-2#post-338228

1.4*10^7 K98k produced leads to 14 000 rifles with s/n 10 000.
If 1 out of ten survived the war, there shall be at least 1400 such rifles around.

 

[Hambone]

View attachment 401497
Clearly nice stamped VCS 1916 from internet. They are similar in quantity as of nr.1 or nr.2 avialable on internet.

That one I don't have a problem with. Could be the pics on the first one.

 

[heavy_mech]

Any pic of a 98k with a 10 000 ?

I dug up an old calc of mine: https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/a...-while-10-plus-years.45679/page-2#post-338228

1.4*10^7 K98k produced leads to 14 000 rifles with s/n 10 000.
If 1 out of ten survived the war, there shall be at least 1400 such rifles around.

I agree. If this is the case you'd think SOMEBODY would have one.

 

[Slash]

1.4*10^7 K98k produced leads to 14 000 rifles with s/n 10 000.

I'm sorry but this is flawed thinking. Working from the estimated grand total of rifles (or bayonets, or whatever) produced and dividing that number by 10.000 does not provide for an accurate amount of pieces with a 10000 serial number. One must look at the aggregate, not the total and by that I mean how many items did each maker produce each year or other period. Although with obvious exceptions each maker started yearly/period production at 1 they generally did not end serial numbering at 10000. At the end of each year/period, for each maker there are "left over" serial numbers that should not be counted toward a 10000 serial number. In other words, if Maker A ends the year/period at serial number 9500g; Maker B at 4000p; and Maker C at 7500d this would add 21.000 items to a total but it would not add a single 10000 serial numbered example. One must also remember that the 1 - 10000, 1a - 10000a serial numbering sequence was not standard for all makers across all years again impacting any total ÷ 10.000 calculation.

It may not seem like a significant amount but over many years and many makers it adds up. I've done the math for S84/98 bayonets produced from 1934 to 1945 (in similar numbers to K98k) and the number of possible 10000 serial number bayonets is no where even remotely close to 14.000. My thoughts only ....

 

[AndyB]

Maybe someone is here wrong in matematic, 14millions divide with 10000 brings so 1400 (not 14000) would be overall 10000 marked pieces, when it would be so that all range ended with 10000, Slash is right that some of the contracts ended earlier so dont reached the 10000, offcoarse some makers didnt start from start of year but continued with the serialing into other year.
In case we assume only 12million K98k rifles were made 1200 pcs were so marked even nr.1 or nr.10000 by fullended series . By real occuring post 80 years from war of only 1% of samples produced, so in reality 12 pcs should be avialable on collector hands. 12pcs could be exist, even not present on web here. Personally i would tend to even smaller range a 0,1% of overall amount , which means only 1,2 Sample avialable.
To compare dbase of bayonets, i have reported 3 samples of 10000 range, 2 samples of nr.1 and no one sample nr.2 in the dbase of 19000 pieces.
And from this i should ask the question, someone here dont believe that exist nr.2 marked bayonets??, even by 14million pieces they were minimum 1400 samples produced??even not present in large dbase??
MP40 from internet

 

[AndyB]

That one I don't have a problem with. Could be the pics on the first one.

The first rifle is b range, second picture is m range. So it means here are present 3 independent pieces of Gew98 marked 10000, even someone says it is blurry on pp range, but is that strange found a doubble striked sample?? Is visible even the letters pp are doubble striked as should be by proper one piece stamp.

 

[feldmütze]

I've got a pic on my pc of a 98K floorplate (with trigger guard) serial #10000. It's an old pic I believe from Gunboards. It's tiny & my attempts to enlarge it just blur it with my limited pc knowledge. If anyone wants to try their luck I can send it to you....

 

[Guillaume d'Orange]

I'm sorry but this is flawed thinking. Working from the estimated grand total of rifles (or bayonets, or whatever) produced and dividing that number by 10.000 does not provide for an accurate amount of pieces with a 10000 serial number. One must look at the aggregate, not the total and by that I mean how many items did each maker produce each year or other period. Although with obvious exceptions each maker started yearly/period production at 1 they generally did not end serial numbering at 10000. At the end of each year/period, for each maker there are "left over" serial numbers that should not be counted toward a 10000 serial number. In other words, if Maker A ends the year/period at serial number 9500g; Maker B at 4000p; and Maker C at 7500d this would add 21.000 items to a total but it would not add a single 10000 serial numbered example. One must also remember that the 1 - 10000, 1a - 10000a serial numbering sequence was not standard for all makers across all years again impacting any total ÷ 10.000 calculation.

It may not seem like a significant amount but over many years and many makers it adds up. I've done the math for S84/98 bayonets produced from 1934 to 1945 (in similar numbers to K98k) and the number of possible 10000 serial number bayonets is no where even remotely close to 14.000. My thoughts only ....

You're right and @AndyB is right too about my mistake.
I looked at the tables at the end of Vol IIb.
I count around 1069 K98ks produced with s/n 10 000.
The ones that survived may be in the hundreds (@AndyB : a single-digit percentage for the survival rate is tough, in my opinion. Only considering Russian captures, there may have been more than a million of K98ks that survived).
That shall be enough for one to emerge one day and a fellow forum member to record it.

 

[AndyB]

Question is how large is the dbase of K98k rifles, and how many reported are pieces in first 10 or last 10 range of 10000. About Russia i would be carefully, as many were refurbished in bad way, dissasembling and later assembling and reblueing, some were new serialed. Many already ended in various countries of the world. In territory of Germany majority were melted down post 1945. The best item for statistics are US Gis captured items.