K98k AX 41

[Discogodfather]

D-K made the best argument so far that the shroud and safety look suspect because:

1) There is no flat where the serial number is stamped (I agree I can only find other years of AX's with rounds, not 41's.)
2) The Safety numbering is weird and the angular safety is dissimilar to most examples that have the older rounded style with machining marks

I can respect that evidence as suspect. The font arguments seem far fetched to me. It's tough to imagine someone replacing a shroud and safety and going to that length to hump the rifle. It's clearly a gray area.

I looked through more notes on Erma and found something more disturbing than anyone has posted. Did you guys see the serial #'s and try and match any of it to the stock? According to one source I have, serial #'s in the A block up to 6000 still used flat buttplates, not sure if that means ALL where flat or there was a period of flat then cupped? It also says no external numbering of the stocks was adopted for 1941, but it should have internal #'s, correct?

As far as discrepancies are concerned the Erfurt/ERMA stuff is always suspect in the sense that they did not use subcontractors much, so things not matching vs matching seem to have a pretty high standard. That also means that ERMA is one of the toughest to hump.

As for all the personal attacks, I'll just assume they thought I was the OP in disguise or some kind of friend or something and write them off.

 

[Loewe]

This explains a great deal, - our critic of critics, our challenger of the obvious, the masked crusader intent on righting wrongs is using Robert Jensen's articles... either an original September 1990 KCN or one of the revisions done by Peter Kuck, - probably the later as they are free and typically used by novices because they live by the motto of "why buy it when I can get something half as good for free"... The problem with this assertion (ERMA used flat butplates through the 6000a block), is that the theory is based upon one rifle (6613 a), a rifle that has a humptastic stock.

All of this is irrelevant, though we can discuss this elsewhere if someone I respect wants to learn about when ERMA did stop using flat buttplates, - or anything else about characteristic ax/41's should exhibit (the trends for ERMA are known), however the point here is that Disco is a fraud, he "questions critics" using 26 year old articles that rely on one fraudulent rifle. It is almost certainly the limit of his "research", which I am sure extends no further than a forum search or parroting a real researchers work.

I looked through more notes on Erma and found something more disturbing than anyone has posted. Did you guys see the serial #'s and try and match any of it to the stock? According to one source I have, serial #'s in the A block up to 6000 still used flat buttplates, not sure if that means ALL where flat or there was a period of flat then cupped? It also says no external numbering of the stocks was adopted for 1941, but it should have internal #'s, correct?

 

[heavy_mech]

Not to keep beating the hell out of this, but for me it's among the MOST interesting parts (other than seeing awesome rifle porn). I looked at many of the photos again and when comparing the 2 shrouds in post #52 it almost looks like there's a line on either side of the serial where it appears (to me) as if metal has been added? It seems I can detect a line in both color and finish of the metal? That also explains the rounded almost raised appearance of the stamping boss.

I can't place the vintage of the safety. To me it looks much newer, but the metal finish isn't quite "right" or consistent with any other comparable piece I was able to find. Whatever the process of manufacture, it creates a "grain" for lack of a better word on the surface of the steel. It's just flat wrong when compared to all the other pieces around it as well as any other contemporary examples I could find.

 

[Discogodfather]

This explains a great deal, - our critic of critics, our challenger of the obvious, the masked crusader intent on righting wrongs is using Robert Jensen's articles... either an original September 1990 KCN or one of the revisions done by Peter Kuck, - probably the later as they are free and typically used by novices because they live by the motto of "why buy it when I can get something half as good for free"... The problem with this assertion (ERMA used flat butplates through the 6000a block), is that the theory is based upon one rifle (6613 a), a rifle that has a humptastic stock.

All of this is irrelevant, though we can discuss this elsewhere if someone I respect wants to learn about when ERMA did stop using flat buttplates, - or anything else about characteristic ax/41's should exhibit (the trends for ERMA are known), however the point here is that Disco is a fraud, he "questions critics" using 26 year old articles that rely on one fraudulent rifle. It is almost certainly the limit of his "research", which I am sure extends no further than a forum search or parroting a real researchers work.

More Loewe-brow personal insults, you've provided very little to back up anything other than inferring that you are an expert. I referred to an article so I am a fraud? I'm discussing the rifle and making counterpoints. Let me guess you're response: more personal insults. You even worked in a slight to the Calguns C&R community, hilarious.

 

[Warrior1354]

Wow never thought defending this rifle would go this far because this is what discogodfather has led me too believe right now. Why go through the trouble digging up old articles of info that are not even accurate anymore. And Disco I was the member that asked coltgrabber the simple question why would he sell a rifle too someone that may have problems. This was he reply back too me.

First off, a couple of comments from folks off this forum doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with the bolt on this rifle. I appreciate the input but a few negative remarks based upon a few photos doesn't automatically put my rifle into a suspect category. I also resent the insinuation from you that I would knowingly sell a rifle with "problems". At 75 this isn't my first rodeo nor does anyone being a member of this forum automatically make them an "expert"! This isn't the buyers first rodeo either and from our conversations probably knows at least as much as anyone else on this forum about K98k Mousers. He disagreed with the comments on this thread and is ecstatic about being able to own it. That's all that's necessary! The issue is closed as far as I'm concerned.

So I took this as "I'm older your not an expert I'm the expert and I'm done with this forum blah blah." All I asked him was too post more pictures of the bolt group but if you look at his auction too he only has what five too six pictures posted on his auction too sell that rifle. Why show so little of the rifle if your not hiding something. And the bolt groups of my AX41 pieces which I have two of them by the way do not look nothing like coltgrabbers piece.

In short this rifle is a fake turd piece and that should be the end of it.

 

[Loewe]

A slight to Calguns? How exactly, I said I never heard of it and I saw no forum or discussions regarding German military rifles (to judge the site for its relevance to this topic, one would have to see the quality of the contributors. - You brought it up, as though it were a credential.. which isn't surprising because you have no other)

You have made no contribution whatsoever regarding this subject, this is undoubtedly because you have a very shallow understanding of the subject. As for insults, I have had considerable restraint considering how you entered this thread. You came here with an attitude of superiority that your knowledge doesn't support. You came here to set "critics" straight, or as you put it "questioning critics", later more properly stated "criticizing critics", - well I am giving you the opportunity to do just that, form a coherent argument and you will be taken seriously, until then I will treat you with the contempt you came here to give others.

Simple fact is you came here for an argument, worse you were unarmed with the skill sets to debate the subject knowledgeably. You will have to do better than referencing a 26 year old flawed article or a poorly articulated compilation of previously stated observations. In short you rode in here on a horse whirling your hat in the air, with your hand on your six-shooter, and now you expect to be treated respectfully, - if you had walked in here leading your horse, tipped your hat and been courteous, phrasing your "criticism of critics" in a coherent and gentlemanly manner, you would have been welcomed. You are just getting what you reflected and I am more than willing to up the ante because you do not know the subject.

More Loewe-brow personal insults, you've provided very little to back up anything other than inferring that you are an expert. I referred to an article so I am a fraud? I'm discussing the rifle and making counterpoints. Let me guess you're response: more personal insults. You even worked in a slight to the Calguns C&R community, hilarious.

 

[heavy_mech]

Again I'd love to take this back to facts. Science and history are both based (mostly) on facts. The surfaces and fonts (I know you said font match was a non issue) just don't jive. I came uneducated, but I can learn and study. If I wonder about a rifle, I might look at 5 subjects or more above and below the serial. I AM aware one can find AN example to support their argument, especially in the current environment. I have been exposed to some very good fakes here and also some awful ones. I've developed to the point that I can (usually) spot the easy ones. There ARE variations in most production runs, but there are things that are just plain wrong. Like 1970's Sans-Serif stamps...

 

[Discogodfather]

A slight to Calguns? How exactly, I said I never heard of it and I saw no forum or discussions regarding German military rifles (to judge the site for its relevance to this topic, one would have to see the quality of the contributors. - You brought it up, as though it were a credential.. which isn't surprising because you have no other)

I brought up Calguns because that's where I learned of this thread, there is a thread about this thread over there echoing warnings about the rifle. It is a credential, I've been a member for years and have been very active posting about collecting and if you want you could mosey on over and look at my hundreds of posts on all kinds of C&R and on all kinds of Mausers. Is this a measuring contest?

I piled on the bandwagon too but then went back and looked at the pictures, I still do not agree that this is a "turd and a fake" based on these pictures. I also made the point that people responded to the seller's lack of information and that was suspect in and of itself, and I agree that this guy was hyping a big list and not backing it up with good photos. I still think it's a long shot that the bolt is a total hump, it still doesn't look 100% condemn-able based on these photos. I see other people making good points about the round shroud and the square safety.

I apologize if I came off as arrogant or disrespectful to this list, been reading it for years. I have purchased rifles off of research on this forum. Everyone has been respectful and brought up some good information except one guy yelling "FRAUD!" at me constantly.

Sorry, I forgot I have to go have a moonlight dinner with "Coltgrabber" my alter ego and best friend, lol.

 

[D-K]

I piled on the bandwagon too but then went back and looked at the pictures, I still do not agree that this is a "turd and a fake" based on these pictures. .

The problem we are having is communication and it stems from us approaching the same issue differently. Many of the people you are arguing with are researchers and they approach problems logically. This means they are used to communicating in the form of logical arguments using things like claim, warrant and evidence. All of the arguments we have against this rifle have to do with comparisons to other known examples and the process of drawing out the differences to reach a conclusion. Based on our review involving part styles, font styles, the condition of the bolt assembly and the presence of original numbers on the shroud, we reached the conclusion it is fake.

You are approaching the problem based on what you believe. You apparently still believe the back end of the bolt is good but beliefs have more to do with feelings than facts, and we do not accept your feelings as evidence. All of our discussions are going nowhere because our communication styles are so different. This leaves us two choices: we can keep going around with you until we get upset and pulled into an emotional argument that you will probably win. Or... you can just go back to Calguns where your style of authenticating rifles will likely be better received and more appreciated.

 

[Discogodfather]

You apparently still believe the back end of the bolt is good but beliefs have more to do with feelings than facts, and we do not accept your feelings as evidence.

I simply made this observation that the numbering does not look as bad as others have asserted. I have no retort for your pictures showing 5 other 41 Ermas and your point about the shroud shape and safety is completely legit but I would need more photos to totally condemn it.

Calguns has some high end collectors that post frequently, it might not have this level of expertise on Mausers but it's a legit community.

Maybe experts here could also weigh in info about when Erma went from straight to cupped plates if the 6000 a range is the wrong data.

 

[Warrior1354]

So are you telling me disco that you buy this rifle then? You keep saying it's not a hump rifle. Would you pay coltgrabbers asking price of 2k for it? You keep defending this piece why don't you bid on then and add it too your collection. But I bet once you got that piece you wouldn't be happy with it. And remember it's being sold as is on auction.

 

[nirvana]

I simply made this observation that the numbering does not look as bad as others have asserted.

View attachment 117499

Your own picture editing shows that the sevens are a different style of font. The 7's on the rifles accepted as originals have a serif on them. The gun that is the subject of this post lacks those. What more do you need to demonstrate that the fonts are wrong? You have done it yourself, you have shown it. The fonts from rifles made during the same production era are the same, yet this rifle is different. I am completely and utterly lost here. Are you arguing that somehow, in the course of a run of thousands of otherwise similar rifles, this ONE just happened to end up with a different font? You seem to have finally acknowledged that the shroud and safety are abnormal, yet these abnormal parts have normal numbers?

That the OP swapped out a mismatched band spring with an blank one and then hid it says pretty much everything that needs to be said. He is seems to be willing to alter a rifle, deceive a group of potential buyers, and then vanish when he gets pushback. I'm not really willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, especially when the evidence of fakery is not in his favor.

You did not mention or respond to this comment of mine, so please do. It is well documented in this thread, you can look up the links on page two and find the links. Do you acknowledge that the seller has made at LEAST one effort to materially alter this rifle and hide these alterations? Yes, or no. So please, do. Do you believe that a seller who has made an effort to alter a rifle and then conceal that alteration is more likely to have made other alterations that he is hiding?

 

[ugafx4]

Thank you Nirvana for typing that first part about the fonts. He posted a picture that proved my point. I never got around to typing a response but you wrote exactly what I was thinking. And back halves of bolts mismatching is a pretty common occurance. Makes perfect sense to mess with it. You're 95% of the way to a matching rifle, you can fix the last 5%.

Suprised we have not seen the depot argument yet.

 

[nirvana]

Suprised we have not seen the depot argument yet.

Or the "well, the Soviets were knocking at the door, they had to use whatever was available" argument.

 

[heavy_mech]

..the Soviets were knocking at the door, they had to use whatever was available...

Like their handy Sans Serif stamp set!

 

[Discogodfather]

So are you telling me disco that you buy this rifle then? You keep saying it's not a hump rifle. Would you pay coltgrabbers asking price of 2k for it? You keep defending this piece why don't you bid on then and add it too your collection. But I bet once you got that piece you wouldn't be happy with it. And remember it's being sold as is on auction.

No it's never going to get 2k now unless it's sold offline, and I would think it's worth 1k at best given the questions.

I reread this thread and looked again at the pics and my foot is in my mouth, partially, so I have to apologize. It seemed like people where piling on without enough info but there is so much evidence that is fishy to justify the alarms people have stated. I was trying to provide a contrary opinion but it's clear I am out of my depth. What I learned here is that fakes are better than my knowledge which made me take the 40' SP Sauer out of the safe and sweat it out a little bit given what I paid. It's unreal the extent that people will go to add value.

 

[heavy_mech]

...I learned here is that fakes are better than my knowledge... It's unreal the extent that people will go to add value.

That's exactly what brought me here. And a few other sites to be fair. It's bad enough overpaying for a $500. rifle, but I didn't want to remain uneducated on the subject.

 

[nirvana]

No it's never going to get 2k now unless it's sold offline, and I would think it's worth 1k at best given the questions.

I reread this thread and looked again at the pics and my foot is in my mouth, partially, so I have to apologize. It seemed like people where piling on without enough info but there is so much evidence that is fishy to justify the alarms people have stated. I was trying to provide a contrary opinion but it's clear I am out of my depth. What I learned here is that fakes are better than my knowledge which made me take the 40' SP Sauer out of the safe and sweat it out a little bit given what I paid. It's unreal the extent that people will go to add value.

No worries man. We are cool with dissenting opinions here. All that we ask is that they be reasonably argued. As fakes go, it's better than most.

 

[martin100]

Jpg 026

Hello forum members, I have a question about picture 026.
Is this a WaA stamp on the chamber stem? Is that common with AX41 or was it even on other rifles. I've already seen such a stamp on a dou44? Is that possible ?
I ask so interested because I am also looking for a real AX41.
I would be very grateful for some good advice regarding AX41. Many thanks.

martin100

Couldn't really say much on the bolt group thought maybe lighting had something too do with it. But Loewe and Mauser 202 are right the safety number doesn't look quite right. Try too get some good underside pictures of the bolt too.

And too help what too look for here's some pictures of my AX41 d block too help compare pictures with your piece.


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[heavy_mech]

..I have a question about picture 026.
Is this a WaA stamp on the chamber stem? Is that common with AX41 or was it even on other rifles. I've already seen such a stamp on a dou44? Is that possible ?

What you speak of is a firing proof, not WaA acceptance which is found elsewhere. It would be on all period rifles. At this time there are 3, on the chamber, the barrel and the bolt. Here's the one from my AX41 c block.

..I ask so interested because I am also looking for a real AX41.
I would be very grateful for some good advice regarding AX41.

While it's not the greatest I like it and it's got some good things good so you may see more at this thread if you'd like. http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?26679-1941-Erma-c-block&highlight=Erma