Exactly. I was enjoying that conversation. You don't want to become like Vid over at gunboards or every moderator at WAF.
K98k AX 41
- Thread starter coltgrabber
- Start date
Exactly. I was enjoying that conversation. You don't want to become like Vid over at gunboards or every moderator at WAF.
Excellent decision.
This is what separates the left from the right; regardless of your ideology, everyone gets tired of pointing out what is obvious from their perspective, however it is a characteristic of the left to suppress thoughts of others. They fear views that run contrary to their ideology, the right has had a long record of suppressing dissent also, at least initially, though in retrospection they have traditionally seen that free expression, protecting "unpopular" speech, is better than suppression. To challenge the opposition through debate.
That you did the right thing here illustrates why the right is superior to the left in all things, - throughout history the right has incrementally allowed liberty, freedom of speech, sometimes with hiccups of "reaction", often times mark time marching, but generally in the direction of liberty.
One of the leading characteristics of the left, especially the far left, is fascistic intolerance of contrary (or even "discussion") views and speech. This was evidenced by the Chicago Brownshirts on display last week, any college campus you want to name, - they all suppress speech. What they do not get is that such displays only hardens the support for what they protest... every debate I thought to myself, Trump is a fool and dangerous, then one of these displays of arrogance (Romney, Chicago) reminds me of why I will support Trump if the GOP selects him. (and no one else but Cruz, - Trump or Cruz, or I vote Libertarian, which is just fine by me, as I do not like any GOP candidate since Ron Paul retired..)
This is what separates the left from the right; regardless of your ideology, everyone gets tired of pointing out what is obvious from their perspective, however it is a characteristic of the left to suppress thoughts of others. They fear views that run contrary to their ideology, the right has had a long record of suppressing dissent also, at least initially, though in retrospection they have traditionally seen that free expression, protecting "unpopular" speech, is better than suppression. To challenge the opposition through debate.
That you did the right thing here illustrates why the right is superior to the left in all things, - throughout history the right has incrementally allowed liberty, freedom of speech, sometimes with hiccups of "reaction", often times mark time marching, but generally in the direction of liberty.
One of the leading characteristics of the left, especially the far left, is fascistic intolerance of contrary (or even "discussion") views and speech. This was evidenced by the Chicago Brownshirts on display last week, any college campus you want to name, - they all suppress speech. What they do not get is that such displays only hardens the support for what they protest... every debate I thought to myself, Trump is a fool and dangerous, then one of these displays of arrogance (Romney, Chicago) reminds me of why I will support Trump if the GOP selects him. (and no one else but Cruz, - Trump or Cruz, or I vote Libertarian, which is just fine by me, as I do not like any GOP candidate since Ron Paul retired..)
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Thanks. Just to clarify the guy is completely wrong, I just enjoy learning while we discuss it. And he will either come around and agree with us, learning from the experience or he will identify himself as a fraud. Either way it's good for the collecting community I think.
Warrior1354
ax - hole
I highly doubt this guy will comment on this again. After I question him before why he would sell a rifle with problems too someone. And he all ready accused me of being wrong and just because some guys here say the piece is wrong does not mean its wrong in his words. He's no different then the other guy that had the bcd/duv41 rifle. Both of them basically wanted too hear your rifle is great worth thousands and super rare. Once negative things turn out on their rifles they both said we don't need this forum and haven't said anything since.
DaveDavis
Well-known member
It keeps humor alive, but gets on my nerves when someone simply refuses to see the light. Special pleading, and fantasy what ifs, have no place in this hobby.
How can you reason with this ???? You guys are welcome to come by, and try, but IMHO it's a waste of time.
If you had noticed in post number 9, I stated that I have the Steves/Karem Kriegsmodell book, and I stated I fail to see a difference in the stamp on the rifle in question, and the picture posted on page 213 in the book of the correct stamp used on a bnz 44 such as this. Now please explain that.
The Attached Thumbnail you post of a plain eagle stamp on a hardwood stock I fail to see the significance. The book states the laminated stocks used the "Eagle H Stamp" and does not mention another type used for the Kriegsmodell. And again I compared with magnification every line in the picture on page 213 in the book to the stamp on the rifle stock in this discussion and they look identical and I deal with physical fine detail in my work to discern value all day every day and I am very good at what I do IMO and others who rely on me..
Joe
PS: I have also been in conversation with Mike Steves in the recent past, very nice fellow, but sometimes he also has no answers to comments he makes.
Mike how can you be so ignorant and not see how right this fellow is ?????
MUST BE LATE LATE WAR / like 2016 https://www.gunpartscorp.com/Categories/Gunsmithing-36020/HandStamps-36438.htm
How can you reason with this ???? You guys are welcome to come by, and try, but IMHO it's a waste of time.
If you had noticed in post number 9, I stated that I have the Steves/Karem Kriegsmodell book, and I stated I fail to see a difference in the stamp on the rifle in question, and the picture posted on page 213 in the book of the correct stamp used on a bnz 44 such as this. Now please explain that.
The Attached Thumbnail you post of a plain eagle stamp on a hardwood stock I fail to see the significance. The book states the laminated stocks used the "Eagle H Stamp" and does not mention another type used for the Kriegsmodell. And again I compared with magnification every line in the picture on page 213 in the book to the stamp on the rifle stock in this discussion and they look identical and I deal with physical fine detail in my work to discern value all day every day and I am very good at what I do IMO and others who rely on me..
Joe
PS: I have also been in conversation with Mike Steves in the recent past, very nice fellow, but sometimes he also has no answers to comments he makes.
Mike how can you be so ignorant and not see how right this fellow is ?????
MUST BE LATE LATE WAR / like 2016 https://www.gunpartscorp.com/Categories/Gunsmithing-36020/HandStamps-36438.htm
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heavy_mech
RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual
Thankfully! A saving grace of these tragedies?
Now I know where all the recent mint (I look like I was stamped yesterday) stock eagles come from. I loved the cat who tried to "enhance" his shallow original and missed on the alignment by about 1/8"
Discogodfather
Member
Questioning Cirtics
So this was posted over on Calguns too and I originally thought, just as the critical posts suggested, that this was a hump job. But I didn't look at the images closely and today had some time and went through them.
Whats so bad about this rifle? The waffenamps look good, all the numbering looks ok, and the saftey looks fine. The stock seems lightly sanded and maybe a turpentine soaked rag ran across it, the H mark looks faded. Not exactly the grounds to say this rifle is a "turd" or a "hump". Maybe not 2k+ but why not $1500-2000? Seen plenty with far worse sanded and lacquered stocks fo for more.
Seller needs to take pics and confirm:
1) Internal stock numbers (it should be numbered to the rifle)
2) Internal bolt part pics to back up his "list" that he posted
As far as it being forged or faked I see no evidence at all. I have a 40' JP Sauer and the marks look similar to me. As far as faking is concerned you got to be really really really god to fake a Erfurt or Suhl gun.
I think people jumped on the bandwagon too fast on this one, including myself? Trying to be objective here, no connection to seller at all.
So this was posted over on Calguns too and I originally thought, just as the critical posts suggested, that this was a hump job. But I didn't look at the images closely and today had some time and went through them.
Whats so bad about this rifle? The waffenamps look good, all the numbering looks ok, and the saftey looks fine. The stock seems lightly sanded and maybe a turpentine soaked rag ran across it, the H mark looks faded. Not exactly the grounds to say this rifle is a "turd" or a "hump". Maybe not 2k+ but why not $1500-2000? Seen plenty with far worse sanded and lacquered stocks fo for more.
Seller needs to take pics and confirm:
1) Internal stock numbers (it should be numbered to the rifle)
2) Internal bolt part pics to back up his "list" that he posted
As far as it being forged or faked I see no evidence at all. I have a 40' JP Sauer and the marks look similar to me. As far as faking is concerned you got to be really really really god to fake a Erfurt or Suhl gun.
I think people jumped on the bandwagon too fast on this one, including myself? Trying to be objective here, no connection to seller at all.
What sticks out to me is the font on the safety and bolt shroud. It looks a bit bubbly. This can be looked at from a typographical perspective.
Compare the 7s on the AX41 in the link below (serial 3078), with the rifle in this thread (SN 3706). [Wow just noticed that they are only two serials off. You can not get a better comparison.] 3078 has serifs on all of its 7s. The serif is the part that drops down on the furthest left hand side of the number. Looks at the bolt root on 3706. The 7 has a seriff. Check the shroud and saftey, no serif. Then compare back with 3078. Serifs on all 7s. This inconsistency is what set the humper alarms off.
http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?6015-Well-I-got-lucky&p=41082&posted=1#post41082
Hope this helps!
Compare the 7s on the AX41 in the link below (serial 3078), with the rifle in this thread (SN 3706). [Wow just noticed that they are only two serials off. You can not get a better comparison.] 3078 has serifs on all of its 7s. The serif is the part that drops down on the furthest left hand side of the number. Looks at the bolt root on 3706. The 7 has a seriff. Check the shroud and saftey, no serif. Then compare back with 3078. Serifs on all 7s. This inconsistency is what set the humper alarms off.
http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?6015-Well-I-got-lucky&p=41082&posted=1#post41082
Hope this helps!
Good analysis. I am attaching pictures so people can compare the two bolt assemblies. I will add that the Erma bolt shrouds have a flat ground in them and the fake bolt doesn't have that (but you can see remnants of the original number). Also, I have not seen an AX 41 with the later-style safety like the one on the fake rifle. It is likely the bolt parts have the wrong Waffenamts on them as well, but what the hell do we know... we've never been to a rodeo. As an aside, this guy's auction ended at $835 with the Reserve Not Met and was not relisted. Hopefully, buyer Sydney56 did not work out a "great deal" after the auction ended.
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Discogodfather
Member
Its funny because someone posted that same pic of the 3078 gun on Calguns too, as an example of an original gun. I think it's original too. But look at the 7's. They are not all the same.
In none of my books or years of doing this collecting have I ever heard that all the numbers need to be the same. I have many original Mausers going back to the 1890's and they all have minor discrepancies in the fonts and styles here and there, within reason.
Take a look at these discrepancies in a 37 ERMA:
There are typically different die sets for the smaller parts of the bolt assembly, because the fonts are smaller than the bolt body. It is possible the auction rifle has an original bolt body with a replaced back end of the bolt assembly. The seller ran off as soon as someone started questioning the bolt and stock finish, so we are not going to see the rest of the pictures we need to be sure, but I can tell you 100% that the back end of the bolt on the auction rifle is fake. Here are other pictures of bolt assemblies from matching AX 41 rifles, each file name indicates the source. You will see each has the early milled style safety and each has a notch in the shroud where the serial number goes. The back end of the bolt assembly from the AX 41 coltgrabber posted does not have these features because it is fake. You will see some variation in parts used in late-war rifles, but not early ones like this. Manufacturing is a process where people are doing the same thing consistently, and in this case, the craftsmen at Erma were doing it under very close supervision. The end result was rifles that met a standard and were very similar to each other. The AX 41 coltgrabber posted does not fit the pattern.
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heavy_mech
RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual
I'm glad you added the "within reason" part. I have neither years of collecting or stacks of books, but some of the details being argued are SO obvious they border on the ridiculous.
I'll say different size parts, especially if they're subcontracted and produced in a facility not co-located will have different fonts. No surprise there. But when the font is different WITHIN the same number, that's a HUGE red flag. Even I can see this. Germans make their numbers different than we do and some of the dies that are being deployed are clearly Anglo postwar IMHO. Add the huge boss locations, grinder marks and ghost numerals still visible and it becomes even more apparent it's a fake. All the stories and defenses are complete BS, again just MO.
from post #51 above - "has serifs on all of its 7s"
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Disco has made no comment (argument) that shows he has any significant experience, his comments regarding what would be needed to authenticate this bolt was stated in the first few posts, and as D-K stated, fat chance considering the OP took his ball and went home. Which is his right, - it was obvious from the first post he was fishing for confirmation of what he already believed, not an evaluation. That was why i was a little reserved at first, as it was obvious he was not interested in hearing problems. Had he wanted to know for sure, one way or another, he would have done pictures of the bolt bottom flat and component acceptance. There is a good chance he knows the bolt is bad and that is why he refused to entertain any discussion of the acceptance. Acceptance is the key to all rifles, - no one said the fonts must be the same, from the beginning the issue was one of acceptance. It tells what is original and what is post factory, no proper evaluation is possible without acceptance. How it is applied and the style is also critical. The style of the fonts for every maker are known, they vary slightly by year and range, as do suffix fonts in many cases. These are all known and this back end is bad because it doesn't conform to known patterns. The fonts here are also typical of known fraudulent stamps, - I had thought this so widely known (obvious) that it didn't need repeating.
If Disco isn't Coltgrabber, they have a great deal in common, they come here with very little demonstrable experience and argue against obvious problems. Typically, new people do not do this unless they have significant experience, and what exactly caught Disco's eye to this particular thread? This section of the forum, 1933-1945 has 4455 threads, and his first two posts are inspired by his revelation that everyone here except coltgrabber is mistaken? What stack of books does he refer to in his second post? There are only a handful of books that discuss this subject at all, most of them not related to the Kar.98k. Even backbone doesn't go into marking variation to any degree, only Mike and Bruce's books cover the 98k in such detail. Some P08 books do also, perhaps some pistol books as well, and cross over value between variation is useful, but must be used with caution.
As stated many times, by collectors with a track record of experience, the back end of this bolt is bad, the bolt body is possibly bad, only more pictures (straight on and the bottom flat) will confirm either way, the rest of the debate is moot unless someone buys coltgrabbers rifle and takes the appropriate pictures, - but who is that interested, or foolish? Perhaps Disco can earn some credibility here, if he is so sure, buy the rifle and show everyone the value of his lonely opinion. (or he could just get his friend coltgrabber to do the pictures asked for in post #4.)
If Disco isn't Coltgrabber, they have a great deal in common, they come here with very little demonstrable experience and argue against obvious problems. Typically, new people do not do this unless they have significant experience, and what exactly caught Disco's eye to this particular thread? This section of the forum, 1933-1945 has 4455 threads, and his first two posts are inspired by his revelation that everyone here except coltgrabber is mistaken? What stack of books does he refer to in his second post? There are only a handful of books that discuss this subject at all, most of them not related to the Kar.98k. Even backbone doesn't go into marking variation to any degree, only Mike and Bruce's books cover the 98k in such detail. Some P08 books do also, perhaps some pistol books as well, and cross over value between variation is useful, but must be used with caution.
As stated many times, by collectors with a track record of experience, the back end of this bolt is bad, the bolt body is possibly bad, only more pictures (straight on and the bottom flat) will confirm either way, the rest of the debate is moot unless someone buys coltgrabbers rifle and takes the appropriate pictures, - but who is that interested, or foolish? Perhaps Disco can earn some credibility here, if he is so sure, buy the rifle and show everyone the value of his lonely opinion. (or he could just get his friend coltgrabber to do the pictures asked for in post #4.)
Discogodfather
Member
I have pictures of ERMA rifles without a flat on top of the shroud where the serial number is stamped, so this theory makes little sense. In fact a few people in this thread have posted pics of ERMA's with fully circular shrouds. Here is the 9736 rifle pictured earlier:
Even though I identified myself as from Calguns and heard about the thread at Calguns (I have been a memeber here for a few years, I just post all C&R talk on Calguns, the same critics that I am criticizing with some tough questions and now implying I am the OP and the seller of the rifle? Like I said in the earlier post, I have no connection. I have a GB account in the same name and I can assure you I have no idea who the OP is.
I'm also not defending the OP's rifle in the sense that I think it's perfect and bonifide, they guy needs to show internal stock numbers and take way more pictures. But again, to reiterate, there have been some very soft criticisms of the actual photos and TONS of implication that things are fake when there is little or no evidence to suggest so. I am not saying I can't be wrong either, and I am not an expert.
Yes, 37 Ermas do have a full shroud, but 41 Ermas do not as is seen by the five original examples posted here...
I am not sure what your standard for evidence is, but we have posted five other examples of AX 41 bolt assemblies and explained, in great detail, the differences between those bolt assemblies and the fake.
Since you are the one that still has doubts, please show us five other AX 41 rifles that have bolt assemblies that conform to the pattern of the one we are calling a fake, and teach us what we are missing.
Reiterate these tough questions you posed, I have not observe one yet?
Perhaps you are not the OP, however it doesn't matter, so far your arguments (criticism of critics) have been simplistic and repetitive of things already discussed (BTW, letting us know you are not an expert was not needed, that was evident when you spelled waffenamt as waffenamps). As for Calguns, never heard of it, had to look it up and I saw no discussion group regarding German rifle of any kind.
Perhaps you are not the OP, however it doesn't matter, so far your arguments (criticism of critics) have been simplistic and repetitive of things already discussed (BTW, letting us know you are not an expert was not needed, that was evident when you spelled waffenamt as waffenamps). As for Calguns, never heard of it, had to look it up and I saw no discussion group regarding German rifle of any kind.
That the OP swapped out a mismatched band spring with an blank one and then hid it says pretty much everything that needs to be said. He is seems to be willing to alter a rifle, deceive a group of potential buyers, and then vanish when he gets pushback. I'm not really willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, especially when the evidence of fakery is not in his favor.
