high dollar dou 44?

[mrfarb]

To me, the benefit of shill bidding is this: if the shill doesn’t “pay” you offer the rifle to the next bidder. If that doesn’t work, you sell it through your email network/ dealer site and reference the auction as justification saying you had a non-paying bidder. If you convince someone on your list to buy it for $3200 or even $3000 you win. Not saying that is the case here, but how I imagine it might work.


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[Hambone]

I've got one 700 guns away in like condition - they not rare by any means and turn up regularly (I like dou's but they definitely get less love!). I would have said 1600-1800. By here's my question and this may sound ignorant or naive or both: what's to be gained by having shills drive up the price on such a visible auction? By shills are we talking friends who bid with no intention of buying -- what happens if they get stuck as high bidder? We'd all know if it simply gets relisted. And can shills really push someone to pay twice what it's worth? How would a shill know how far to drive a legit bidder? I'm asking honestly and again perhaps naively but I don't get it! If you know the market at all you have a cap. And wait for the next one. What am I missing? Is it really just auction fever?

If shill bidding didn't have a benefit it wouldn't happen. Items bid way up do get relisted not infrequently. I bid on high power way high and returned it due to undescribed condition issues. It will get relisted. I got a notice from Gunbonker that the seller wanted me to confirm that it went unsold. I don't think my "win" is in the history. Nobody paid an auction fee. Point is, there is much upside and items do get relisted, months down the road, or by the "winner", or in a list, or at a show. The problem with such antics is that it creates an artificially inflated market and unrealistic expectations. You know, the seller who walks around the show with his 200% overpriced K98k because he saw one sell for that on Gunbonker, or people who price them on site traders and such. This went beyond auction fever. Also, these listings lapse and are no longer visible. Without screen shots who knows.

Just watch for it and see what happens.

 

[heavy_mech]

...This went beyond auction fever.

Really that's kind of where I was going with this. I believe that (auction fever) is a real thing. Definitely. A few high profile sellers routinely pull 200% and more over normal retail. At least in theory. I agree that almost certainly not all these 'sales' live to completion and I think Mike covered most of the possible reasons. Not every auction, but enough to cause notice. I appreciate the discussion regarding practices in selling, rational prices and buyer attitudes.

 

[heavy_mech]

Just to further add to the madness. Say you 'made' some new Nazi relic. Party badges, Christmas ornaments or toilet paper! You have many and want to develop a market. Wouldn't it be worth it to sell a few dozen to yourself?

 

[Hambone]

My point is that anyone, any two people, with a spare $3500 burning a hole in their pocket, who has need for a really nice K98k in matching shape, could Google the term and find one as nice, rarer maker/date, for $1000 less.

 

[bnz44owner]

… The problem with such antics is that it creates an artificially inflated market and unrealistic expectations. You know, the seller who walks around the show with his 200% overpriced K98k because he saw one sell for that on Gunbonker, or people who price them on site traders and such. …

I agree here: that's the problem. For example, I was looking at an Enfield locally and tried to price them out. So, I went to GB to see what they were going for. After about 5 minutes or so I knew I couldn't rely on anything there, and so I turned here for help. If I didn't know about this forum, or if I didn't get help here, I'd have been royally screwed.

 

[Warrior1354]

I'm paid good money for some guns but patience pays off in the long run. It was just a few months ago I bought that 337 1940 off gunbroker for under $900. But luck was on my side that day and I guess nobody else was paying attention that day it happens. Now my ax 1940 that I searched for years for and finally bought one off Hugh Brocks. I paid the man $2,400 for it and didn't bat a eye. In 5 years of hunting for them I only saw two for sale. But I agree doing these types of auctions causes massive inflation on the market that are not true prices. I hear the same term all the time but this item sold on gunbroker my item is equally worth that much are even more. People need to realize gunbroker is not the market.

 

[yellowkid]

thx guys. I could easily see that a regular seller would want to create the impression of a high "ceiling" and give bidders room in their minds to bid higher than prudence would suggest down the road. makes sense. I've always just wondered why it would make sense if you don't make the sale! good discussion.

 

[Ricker]

This thread reminds of me and my childhood friends gathered around the lunch table bickering over which player's baseball card was going up or down in price that month. We had a price guide called Beckett Monthly and you could see how much each card was "worth". None of us knew any better, but looking back that was a really poor way to enjoy collecting baseball cards. Our hobby was no better than a commodity to be traded, bought and sold. I wasted a lot of emotion back then worried that I bought the next dud of a card, or if my buddy was going to get in on a deal before me at the card shop. That was wasted energy and took a lot of the fun out of it.

The fun I get out of this hobby is getting to shoot old guns, learning about their history, and seeing other people's awesome collections.

So if someone wants to pay a bazillion dollars for something he enjoys let him. It's their money. Just enjoy the hobby. And FWIW, I would love to see that gun in person it was quite a nice looking rifle!! Congrats to the new owner of it.

 

[Hambone]

This thread reminds of me and my childhood friends gathered around the lunch table bickering over which player's baseball card was going up or down in price that month. We had a price guide called Beckett Monthly and you could see how much each card was "worth". None of us knew any better, but looking back that was a really poor way to enjoy collecting baseball cards. Our hobby was no better than a commodity to be traded, bought and sold. I wasted a lot of emotion back then worried that I bought the next dud of a card, or if my buddy was going to get in on a deal before me at the card shop. That was wasted energy and took a lot of the fun out of it.

The fun I get out of this hobby is getting to shoot old guns, learning about their history, and seeing other people's awesome collections.

So if someone wants to pay a bazillion dollars for something he enjoys let him. It's their money. Just enjoy the hobby. And FWIW, I would love to see that gun in person it was quite a nice looking rifle!! Congrats to the new owner of it.

The point here is not that someone wants to spend a "bazillion dollars," on something, but whether such transaction is real or not and whether it actually represents a true market price for setting benchmarks in the hobby. Some of us do have an interest in understanding what firearms are worth so that we can understand whether or not the price we are paying is good, fair, or excessive. You and your childhood friends didn't "know any better" but the group here does because they are adults with long tenures in the hobby, who have bought, sold, and traded.

I disagree that time spent watching, understanding, and discussing the market for the things we collect, buy, sell, and trade is "wasted energy" and takes "a lot of the fun out of it."

 

[heavy_mech]

..I disagree that time spent watching, understanding, and discussing the market for the things we collect, buy, sell, and trade is "wasted energy" and takes "a lot of the fun out of it."

I feel the same way about our discussions regarding the validity (or not) of presented items. I almost always come away with a greater awareness and appreciation for the amount of variety in this collecting field. Sure does not feel wasted to me.

 

[Ricker]

The point here is not that someone wants to spend a "bazillion dollars," on something, but whether such transaction is real or not and whether it actually represents a true market price for setting benchmarks in the hobby. Some of us do have an interest in understanding what firearms are worth so that we can understand whether or not the price we are paying is good, fair, or excessive. You and your childhood friends didn't "know any better" but the group here does because they are adults with long tenures in the hobby, who have bought, sold, and traded.

I disagree that time spent watching, understanding, and discussing the market for the things we collect, buy, sell, and trade is "wasted energy" and takes "a lot of the fun out of it."

If you say so Hambone.

 

[Ricker]

Yall do you. Im just saying that if I go to a gun store and like a particular rifle, and I want to pay what the seller wants, then I buy it. Nobody wants to be shafted on a fake, Im not talking about that. But numbers mis-match, sanded stocks, RC's, etc. I dont care if the value is going up or down on in the future. If you are always worried about whether you are paying too much, then I believe that's not the best way to view a hobby. Heck, my neighbor just paid $35k for a 1969 Pontiac GTO Judge without having anyone (like myself) go over it to make sure it's not a fake. (it is btw,) But hey he loves it and thats all that matters. I'm not about to go over there and give him the bad news and ruin his life.

Im not saying that learning about the rifle and discussing its value is a waste of time. It's the discussion about shill bidders, and whether or not the seller is claiming his guns are one and onlys, etc. The guy wanted that F'ing rifle and paid almost $4k for it. SO what??? .for all you know it could be a member from this group.

 

[Ricker]

Im not really saying you should do or not do...I'm just playing devils advocate by saying dont let money ruin a fun hobby. Im just getting into it from the collector car industry where I have 35 years of experience building and selling classic cars. MONEY HAS RUINED THAT HOBBY!!! Fakes everywhere, people only buying them for the investment value, not driving them (cause hey every mile on the ticker counts right??). It has lost its flavor for me. My Karab 98B that fell into my lap last month is my only k98, but I have many Garands, M1903's and others and I'll be honest there is something different about the collecting of k98's. Its almost if the numbers on the gun mean more than the actual gun itself. I dont know..just an observation from a k98 newb here.

 

[Hambone]

If you say so Hambone.

I do say so. So do many others. This isn't a bunch of children with no concept of money, value, and the real world mindlessly nattering about baseball cards. This is people involved in a hobby they enjoy which is expensive and also, sadly, carries with it a a degree of chicanery, humpery, misdescribing, hype, and carnival barking because of the money involved. It's part of the hobby thus it is worthy of discussion. If you want to collect things where money, humping, and chicanery is not involved (thus requires no discussion), then you'll only reach that hobby nirvana by collecting things with no value, such as dirt clods, cigarette butts, broken pieces of glass, beer pull tabs, etc.

I think your concept of everyone slinging money around and everyone being happy for everyone as long as they are happy is fine. However, rational and realistic discussion, particularly of the market, auction sales, pricing, etc., has its place too. That's what is happening here right now. If this discussion makes you grumpy and sad, and ruins the hobby for you, then don't read it. You don't have to. It's all good bro.

 

[Ricker]

I do say so. So do many others. This isn't a bunch of children with no concept of money, value, and the real world mindlessly nattering about baseball cards. This is people involved in a hobby they enjoy which is expensive and also, sadly, carries with it a a degree of chicanery, humpery, misdescribing, hype, and carnival barking because of the money involved. It's part of the hobby thus it is worthy of discussion. If you want to collect things where money, humping, and chicanery is not involved (thus requires no discussion), then you'll only reach that hobby nirvana by collecting things with no value, such as dirt clods, cigarette butts, broken pieces of glass, beer pull tabs, etc.

I think your concept of everyone slinging money around and everyone being happy for everyone as long as they are happy is fine. However, rational and realistic discussion, particularly of the market, auction sales, pricing, etc., has its place too. That's what is happening here right now. If this discussion makes you grumpy and sad, and ruins the hobby for you, then don't read it. You don't have to. It's all good bro.

HAHA...Hambone...I seem to have pinched a nerve!! Not my intent, but that's kinda the point I was making. Sure there is always room for market discussion. I was only playing devils advocate that if the guy wanted to pay $4k for a rifle that's his business. For all we know he probably makes that in an hour slinging stocks and bonds. You know... real investment vehicles.

Let's say the point of argument that the gun was indeed worth $3775 or even higher. (After all that's the new market it seems for a mint specimen) Would we be lauding his sound, wise investment choice? Personally I wouldnt, because I wouldnt get any enjoyment from shooting/owing a $4000 rifle over one that is $1000 or less. I admit, Im not everyone, and I dont claim to be. My initial post was just to give some insight on my take on the whole deal. After all, this is a forum right? As a member I do get to have some input on my thoughts and my thoughts are no better or worse than yours. I may own only one German rifle, but that's ok. I have a great time with it.

Oh and Hambone....there are baseball cards out there worth more than the most expensive 98k you could ever dream up....just saying....

 

[Hambone]

HAHA...Hambone...I seem to have pinched a nerve!! Not my intent, but that's kinda the point I was making. Sure there is always room for market discussion. I was only playing devils advocate that if the guy wanted to pay $4k for a rifle that's his business. For all we know he probably makes that in an hour slinging stocks and bonds. You know... real investment vehicles.

Let's say the point of argument that the gun was indeed worth $3775 or even higher. (After all that's the new market it seems for a mint specimen) Would we be lauding his sound, wise investment choice? Personally I wouldnt, because I wouldnt get any enjoyment from shooting/owing a $4000 rifle over one that is $1000 or less. I admit, Im not everyone, and I dont claim to be. My initial post was just to give some insight on my take on the whole deal. After all, this is a forum right? As a member I do get to have some input on my thoughts and my thoughts are no better or worse than yours. I may own only one German rifle, but that's ok. I have a great time with it.

Oh and Hambone....there are baseball cards out there worth more than the most expensive 98k you could ever dream up....just saying....

You didn't pinch a nerve, I'm just responding to your comments. I think you are missing the point. No one cares much about someone with more money than sense, or even two dueling nitwits with more money than sense, other than for entertainment value. There are guys here who can buy whatever they want, but what fun is that? Accumulating things because you can, and not taking the time to learn about them? What we care about is the market generally, the reality of an auction sale (or not). It's discussion, but more meaningful than say, discussing the weather, or what was on the "news". I don't really care much about baseball cards. I had them as a kid and kept them in a shoebox, chewed the nasty flat gum. Then one day my mom threw them in the garbage and I never had another. I guess I should have kept them in the packages and I'd be a millionaire. Oh well

 

[Ricker]

You didn't pinch a nerve, I'm just responding to your comments. I think you are missing the point. No one cares much about someone with more money than sense, or even two dueling nitwits with more money than sense, other than for entertainment value. There are guys here who can buy whatever they want, but what fun is that? Accumulating things because you can, and not taking the time to learn about them? What we care about is the market generally, the reality of an auction sale (or not). It's discussion, but more meaningful than say, discussing the weather, or what was on the "news". I don't really care much about baseball cards. I had them as a kid and kept them in a shoebox, chewed the nasty flat gum. Then one day my mom threw them in the garbage and I never had another. I guess I should have kept them in the packages and I'd be a millionaire. Oh well

Listen...I like this forum, I like my 98b, and I like every one of you guys on here. My point was that we should all have perspective about what they are trying to accomplish. I know less than 1% of what you and others know on here about these rifles. There is no question about that. So I have very little to offer you guys other than life experiences that I have been through. I was making a point that every hobby I have been in in my life, from baseball cards, video games (yes ppl collect those) to cars, some people's obsession to the "worth" of their hobby is "market value of my collection in terms of hard dollars". I personally despise that inevitable part of collecting anything. Even if that's what a good majority of people on this forum are all about, that's also fine with me. I was just giving you my perspective on it.

 

[mrfarb]

I agree that you can pay whatever you want, but reckless buying is BAD for this hobby, not good. Sure, you get what you want in this on demand society, but by doing so you drive up the prices where good people who can't afford to pay whatever it cost lose out on entry level guns, as those too go up in price. It's that impatience that is the band of collecting - slow down, wait, you will find a good gun at a reasonable price. No need to pay 3x what shite is worth.

 

[Ricker]

I agree that you can pay whatever you want, but reckless buying is BAD for this hobby, not good. Sure, you get what you want in this on demand society, but by doing so you drive up the prices where good people who can't afford to pay whatever it cost lose out on entry level guns, as those too go up in price. It's that impatience that is the band of collecting - slow down, wait, you will find a good gun at a reasonable price. No need to pay 3x what shite is worth.

I hear that! I have tried bidding on a few including this particular rifle in question on GB. I have lost every time. LOL.