Granatenwerfer 16 or Gr.W.16

[Slash]

Off topic I know as far as Mauser rifles, but we do not really have a good sub-forum for miscellaneous/other Imperial German items and you hate to see things get lost or buried. Mods feel free to move this if/as you see fit.

Anyone else have an interest in the Granatenwerfer 16? I completely lack focus and for whatever reasons these things have always kind of intrigued me. Attaching a period pic for those who might not be as familiar. Regardless, over time I've jotted down a few notes on these so called "spigot mortars" including the one in my collection and wondered if anyone else had an interest. It would appear that 10s of thousands of these little grenade launchers were produced by several makers between late 1916 to 1918.

Have documented the following makers:

- Gebrüder Bing AG, Nürnberg
- Rheinische Metallwaren-und Maschinenfabrik AG, Düsseldorf
- R. Stock & Co. AG, Berlin-Marienfelde
- Maschinenfabrik Alfred Wolff, Berlin

From my limited observations Bing and Wolff seem to be the most commonly encountered makers by far.

The second pic below is from another producer as yet unidentified and part of the reason for this posting. Metal placard with the maker's logo of A K in a rectangle or perhaps an open book? Thought it might have some relationship with Konigliche Amberg but that doesn't really work. Also saw Werkzeugfabrik August Kirsch, Aschaffenburg as a possibility but can't find this trademark or any Gr.W.16 references for them. With a serial number approaching 32K they were large enough to be putting out a respectable number of weapons. Any information or thoughts on who this might be as a producer? Or post any information on the these Granatenwerfer here if you desire.

 

[chrisftk]

Off topic I know as far as Mauser rifles, but we do not really have a good sub-forum for miscellaneous/other Imperial German items and you hate to see things get lost or buried. Mods feel free to move this if/as you see fit.

Anyone else have an interest in the Granatenwerfer 16? I completely lack focus and for whatever reasons these things have always kind of intrigued me. Attaching a period pic for those who might not be as familiar. Regardless, over time I've jotted down a few notes on these so called "spigot mortars" including the one in my collection and wondered if anyone else had an interest. It would appear that 10s of thousands of these little grenade launchers were produced by several makers between late 1916 to 1918.

Have documented the following makers:

- Gebrüder Bing AG, Nürnberg
- Rheinische Metallwaren-und Maschinenfabrik AG, Düsseldorf
- R. Stock & Co. AG, Berlin-Marienfelde
- Maschinenfabrik Alfred Wolff, Berlin

From my limited observations Bing and Wolff seem to be the most commonly encountered makers by far.

The second pic below is from another producer as yet unidentified and part of the reason for this posting. Metal placard with the maker's logo of A K in a rectangle or perhaps an open book? Thought it might have some relationship with Konigliche Amberg but that doesn't really work. Also saw Werkzeugfabrik August Kirsch, Aschaffenburg as a possibility but can't find this trademark or any Gr. W. 16 references for them. With a serial number approaching 32K they were large enough to be putting out a respectable number of weapons. Any information or thoughts on who this might be as a producer? Or post any information on the these Granatenwerfer here if you desire.

Lance, as long as I am a mod, I'm absolutely fine with small ordnance being discussed here as an occasional aside. I've posted a couple of grenades and shell casings here over the years. There really aren't many venues to do so and many of the folks here have interest in imperial pistols, edged weapons and ordnance too. Let's keep it to the weapon side though. I'd frown on going deep into uniforms, headgear etc as there are places for that. This sub forum drifts occasionally and it usually leads to rich discussion-- I also think the Imperialists tend to stay in this section, so posting off-topic may not be seen by the desired audience.

I've added this to the article index sticky.

That being said, awesome write-up. I've got a pretty healthy imperial inert ord collection, but I have not added a granatenwerfer yet. My focus drifts too.. always German, but broad range. I've got items ranging from German Flintlocks to factory captured 45 dated stuff...I both love and hate my wide interest

 

[biggymu]

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/952586112

One just sold on GB

 

[biggymu]

Thank you for the write up as well! I have had an interest in Imperial rifles for a long time. This is a piece of equipment I am not familiar with, despite having had a few early rifle grenades. Always nice to see something out of the ordinary.

 

[heavy_mech]

Lance, as long as I am a mod, I'm absolutely fine with small ordnance being discussed here as an occasional aside. I've posted a couple of grenades and shell casings here over the years. There really aren't many venues to do so and many of the folks here have interest in imperial pistols, edged weapons and ordnance too. Let's keep it to the weapon side though. I'd frown on going deep into uniforms, headgear etc as there are places for that. This sub forum drifts occasionally and it usually leads to rich discussion-- I also think the Imperialists tend to stay in this section, so posting off-topic may not be seen by the desired audience.

I've added this to the article index sticky.

That being said, awesome write-up. I've got a pretty healthy imperial inert ord collection, but I have not added a granatenwerfer yet. My focus drifts too.. always German, but broad range. I've got items ranging from German Flintlocks to factory captured 45 dated stuff...I both love and hate my wide interest

Nice mod hand Chris. Looking forward to any added thoughts.

 

[Nick S]

I have one made by Bing I will try to get posted in the near future. Unfortunately not complete with crate/tools etc. or baseplate but a nice selection of clean original projectiles to go with it. Always on the look out for those missing accessories if anyone has spares.

 

[heavy_mech]

Thank you for the write up as well! I have had an interest in Imperial rifles for a long time. This is a piece of equipment I am not familiar with, despite having had a few early rifle grenades. Always nice to see something out of the ordinary.

Yes. Rifle grenade on steroids if I had to describe it. The shell weighs nearly 4 lbs.

 

[Cyrano4747]

What kind of charge was used to propel these? I'm guessing some kind of blank cartridge - regular 8mm or did they have a special cartridge for them?

 

[Nick S]

What kind of charge was used to propel these? I'm guessing some kind of blank cartridge - regular 8mm or did they have a special cartridge for them?

There is an 8mm blank in the base of the projectile.

 

[mauser99]

great topic.. I owned one.. traded it off but they are super cool.. there is one with a dummy round i saw in the upcoming Amoskeag auction.. not sure the maker.

I cant remmber the maker of the one I owned and dont have any photos... Came from the local legion hall that was closing so was part of the ww1 war booty give away.

 

[Cyrano4747]

There is an 8mm blank in the base of the projectile.

Follow up question, then:

Has anyone here who owns one of these fired one? Because if they take 8mm blanks there would be a MASSIVE temptation to slap a tube and some fins on a nerf football and do some field goal drills.

 

[OzzMan]

Follow up question, then:

Has anyone here who owns one of these fired one? Because if they take 8mm blanks there would be a MASSIVE temptation to slap a tube and some fins on a nerf football and do some field goal drills.

This was my thought lol. With a few measurements, a dummy round could quickly be produced. No joke, give me a handful of measurements and a few hours and I could have a model designed. A couple test runs on my 3D printer and then off to a machine shop.

 

[biggymu]

The nerf football would need a chamber strong enough to contain an explosion strong enough to hurl a 4lb chunk of iron 500 yards

 

[Slash]

What kind of charge was used to propel these? I'm guessing some kind of blank cartridge - regular 8mm or did they have a special cartridge for them?

Here is a period schematic of the Wurfgranate 1915 which shows the blank launching cartridge in place. And an image of some of those patronen.

 

[Slash]

Two Wurfgranate 1915 from my collection. This model of grenade was actually designed in late 1915 for the Granatenwerfer 15 but carried over as the standard for the Model of 1916 as well. They are often called Wurfgranate 1916 by collectors but this is incorrect. The longer black painted version on the left is an early type with only three tail fins. The gray example on the right is the later type more frequently encountered. Shorter and more robust with four tail fins which improved in-flight stability and accuracy. Both of these examples are high explosive fragmentation versions. The early variant is much harder to find than the later shortened type. One of the fins on the gray piece is stamped RKM15.

 

[Slash]

Thanks for all the comments on this thread. Another thought on the unknown maker, A K example ..... Could this be related to Krupp AG?

 

[biggymu]

You have a very nice collection.

Alfred Krupp was an owner (I worked for ThyssenKrupp 20 years)
but I think during this period it was called Friedrich Krupp AG
One webpage said they were simple enough to make, toy makers were enlisted.
* An important aside,
I believe after reading quite a few websites trying to locate a maker, technically, these are illegal destructive devices if not demilled to ATF specifications. Not much different then any other mortar. Wouldn’t take anytime at all to get one up and working. Don’t go shooting your nerf balls just yet.

 

[biggymu]

Original German WWI Granatenwerfer 16 Grenade Thrower with Transit Chest - Dated 1917

Original Item: Only One Available. Totally non-functional and inert having been deactivated according to specifications outlined by the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives). This is an exceptionally rare German World War One Granatwerfer 16 contained in its matched...

www.ima-usa.com

Opening paragraph eludes to dewat.

 

[Nick S]

Original German WWI Granatenwerfer 16 Grenade Thrower with Transit Chest - Dated 1917

Original Item: Only One Available. Totally non-functional and inert having been deactivated according to specifications outlined by the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives). This is an exceptionally rare German World War One Granatwerfer 16 contained in its matched...

www.ima-usa.com

Opening paragraph eludes to dewat.

Yea that one has had the firing pin and cap that holds the pin in removed and looks like filled with weld perhaps? Hard to tell from the pictures. Alot of times you will seem them with those pieces removed and discarded and just an empty threaded hole in an attempt to make it non functional but that has had an extra step done. Nice thing about these is spigot mortars are legal completely intact.

 

[Amberg]

With a serial number approaching 32K they were large enough to be putting out a respectable number of weapons. Any information or thoughts on who this might be as a producer?

I doubt the 3.1961 is the serial#.
Any other markings?
Thanks