German WWII Sniper Patch

[Hercules]

Also, since I'm into Sniper Patches as well. Here is mine and I have a friend who has a verified Vet Purchase of the same patch. Identical in every way. Has this 20 Kill like this and also has the 40 Kill with Silver Braid around the outside as well. If I get his permission to post I will. Of course if you read the German Sniper Badge 1944-1945 then you will see this patch is not mentioned. There to be 3 versions of this patch. So, that book is wrong. This patch is one in Senich and the picture book German Sniper Rifles. I am happy with this, so comments are welcome. Won't probably change my opinion, but interest is welcome.

 

[Hercules]

Here are my friends patches. All very similar. Second Level Patch with silver cord also posted here as well as First Level like mine.

 

[Wilhelm]

I know it's not about money but I'm assuming a verified original patch is worth substantial coin? I've also read that they were rarely attached to the jacket for obvious reasons. Is that true?

 

[rohling81]

Hercules, have you seen the "Scharfschützen Ärmelabzeichen" das was recently added at Weitze?
Notice the piping sits on the very edge on that variant. I'm no expert on these but I like the look of that badge.

Wehrmacht Abzeichen für Scharfschützen 1. Stufe (434657) - Auszeichnungen Wehrmacht Heer - Militaria / Helmut Weitze

Wehrmacht Abzeichen für Scharfschützen 1. Stufe maschinengestickte Ausführung auf steingrauem Grund.<br><br>Das Scharfschützenabzeichen wurde am 20. August 1944 durch Adolf Hitler gestiftet. Im Einführungserlaß dazu hieß es: "...in Anerkennung des Einzelschützen mit

www.weitze.net

 

[Hercules]

Yes original patches can be costly. I have other photos of original patches of all three types. I don't have permission to post those photos, however. A couple of those patches were vet purchase and I know where they came from. It is not about the money. I am a pure collector and don't flip stuff for profit, so it's just a hobby. Some don't collect cloth stuff, because of all the fakes and I respect that. Some will not see the wisdom in my purchase. Kind of like a camo reversible sniper smock.

 

[rohling81]

I have been going going through the same worries, as I have recently been interested in the Jäger sleeve badge.
There are some methods of testing for originality:
1. use blacklight to check if the threats are glowing
2. some badges to not produce glow, still they can be fake because they are made of synthetic threat,
burning a little piece of threat should make the threat evaporate, if it melts it's a fake.
3. Handling the badge in hand, if it's rather stiff it's also an indicator for a replica.

I got these tips from a very reputable dealer in Germany.

>> badge on the right is here the obvious repro!

 

[Hercules]

Hercules, have you seen the "Scharfschützen Ärmelabzeichen" das was recently added at Weitze?
Notice the piping sits on the very edge on that variant. I'm no expert on these but I like the look of that badge.

Wehrmacht Abzeichen für Scharfschützen 1. Stufe (434657) - Auszeichnungen Wehrmacht Heer - Militaria / Helmut Weitze

Wehrmacht Abzeichen für Scharfschützen 1. Stufe maschinengestickte Ausführung auf steingrauem Grund.<br><br>Das Scharfschützenabzeichen wurde am 20. August 1944 durch Adolf Hitler gestiftet. Im Einführungserlaß dazu hieß es: "...in Anerkennung des Einzelschützen mit

www.weitze.net

Yes. I am familiar with that patch as well. I don't have one, but consider that style original according examples I have seen. I think I mentioned above there are three styles or versions as well as three levels of patches. Not to confuse styles with levels. This particular type of patch is mentioned in Sniper Badge Book. Is this one good? Well It looks similar to the other style patch I have photos of. I don't collect patches and just have one Sniper Patch.

 

[Hercules]

I have been going going through the same worries, as I have recently been interested in the Jäger sleeve badge.
There are some methods of testing for originality:
1. use blacklight to check if the threats are glowing
2. some badges to not produce glow, still they can be fake because they are made of synthetic threat,
burning a little piece of threat should make the threat evaporate, if it melts it's a fake.
3. Handling the badge in hand, if it's rather stiff it's also an indicator for a replica.

I got these tips from a very reputable dealer in Germany.

>> badge on the right is here the obvious repro!
View attachment 319760

Yes. Thank you. I do the same thing with my patches. In fact I have the same type of patch you posted above. All my cloth patches come from a dealer that I can trust more than some others I know. I don't buy them just off Gunbroker or similar.

 

[Hercules]

I appreciate your responses. This was just so others will keep an eye out for what I am talking about and maybe someday add something else to this. Or maybe I can post more of the pictures I have if this gets noticed by others.

 

[Hercules]

Here is the third level patch with gold cord from the German Sniper Rifle Book. Mostly a picture book. It is the same style as my patch and that of my friends two patches. Unfortunately in black and white.

 

[Hercules]

Here is the Sniper Patch from the Senich German Sniper Book. It is the third level with gold cord. It looks the same as mine and my friends patch. Black and white of course.

There is also an English translation of the German Order for The German Sniper Patch that explains the makeup of the patch in the Senich Book if your interested.

 

[Hercules]

All the vet bring back patches that I have personal knowledge of and have heard about are like these here I have posted.

The other two styles are just what another collector has told me are original and what the dealers are currently offering. Funny that the only ones that make the newest books are the other two style of patches.

 

[Thorne]

Thank you for this post, I've always thought of looking for original patch for my collection.

However as you mention, their rarity gives little knowledge base for even begining to go through what is real or fake.

 

[Hercules]

There have been those who have said there are two other types of real patches. I have never heard of a US Vet purchase of the other two types that I can verify. One type was like this one here that was linked to the dealer in Germany above.

The other type looks different than this. I don’t have a picture that I have permission to post of that one. No US Vet purchase of that one I can confirm either.

 

[Hercules]

I guess I should thank the forum as well. If I posted this at some others I might have been silenced or ridiculed before I even got finished. I know there are some who say the only good patch is like the one from the dealer above.

The ones I posted like mine are the only ones I know that are similar to ones that came from a US Veteran. It’s in more than case as well. I have more photos I wish I could share, but can’t.

 

[Hercules]

Here is a price guide with my patch and one that is the other or third type in it not posted already.

 

[Philip]

I’m aware of the controversy around versions embroidered on feldgrau wool and to a large extent the controversy about any and all known versions. I think that your base looks very credible and I don’t dismiss it. If we just went by estimated 4X military used scope production excluding the ZF4 we would probably come up with a figure of around 50,000 sniper rifles produced by the Germans. If there are better estimates than that out there I’m all ears to listen to them. With that many snipers going through the war and the majority being in 1944, it is hard to believe (for me at least) that such a badge as instituted around August 1944 was not manufactured and awarded and in some numbers. I can also easily believe that several manufacturers were selected to make and that slight differences particularly if backing material existed. No need to get into the circular argument about them being or not being much worn, that does not matter nor does the lack of finding clear photos of them being worn.

 

[mauser99]

This is an interesting topic.. Brian posted one of these a few years back and there was spirted discussion then. My head was clearer then and I think there was a many page discussion on WAF at a similar time on these patches. One thing is certain. This patch and the jager patch are similar and made a similar way.. Also the mountain troop patch was made in huge quantities.. There are at least three maybe more variations of the Gebirgs sleeve patch.. Wool EM bevo EM and Officers wool and bullion. I would have to say with any of these patches its possible for this process to be followed.. Once designed and approved a patch would be given a production run. These are machine made not custom one off items.. Large spools would be made to think they would be made any different is just foolish.. Im sure some were tunic removed and then some found in factories and depots ect. Which one is the real type at this point is anyone's guess ?? Is there a photo anywhere of one of these being worn ? When making anything these factories were paid by piece count. Awards ect. weren't made by the amount handed out they were made by factory orders and there was always surplus.

My thoughts..

 

[Philip]

This is an interesting topic.. Brian posted one of these a few years back and there was spirted discussion then. My head was clearer then and I think there was a many page discussion on WAF at a similar time on these patches. One thing is certain. This patch and the jager patch are similar and made a similar way.. Also the mountain troop patch was made in huge quantities.. There are at least three maybe more variations of the Gebirgs sleeve patch.. Wool EM bevo EM and Officers wool and bullion. I would have to say with any of these patches its possible for this process to be followed.. Once designed and approved a patch would be given a production run. These are machine made not custom one off items.. Large spools would be made to think they would be made any different is just foolish.. Im sure some were tunic removed and then some found in factories and depots ect. Which one is the real type at this point is anyone's guess ?? Is there a photo anywhere of one of these being worn ? When making anything these factories were paid by piece count. Awards ect. weren't made by the amount handed out they were made by factory orders and there was always surplus.

My thoughts..

I agree but will say every type of German cloth insignia that I can think of has some known manufacturing variations and most have many. One narrow example is LW flight badges of which each design probably has 10 or more manufacturers variations known. My biggest question about German sniper badges is the fact (seemingly) that so few and some say none, can be shown to be vet bring backs. I’m not necessarily talking about “cut offs” from KIA and POW, let’s assume very very few were worn in combat, but rather from various supply, HQ, unit and factory stocks like literally everything else was found at one or more of those entities. I’m not saying this means they did not exist and even in some quantity but it is a real puzzle to me. I would expect to see at least a few dozen very credible accounts of vets obtaining these even if only 500 were produced and sent to 25 - 50 different places, say Corps supply facilities or HQ for potential awards. Vets would have found at least 50 of these, maybe they did.

 

[Hercules]

I agree but will say every type of German cloth insignia that I can think of has some known manufacturing variations and most have many. One narrow example is LW flight badges of which each design probably has 10 or more manufacturers variations known. My biggest question about German sniper badges is the fact (seemingly) that so few and some say none, can be shown to be vet bring backs. I’m not necessarily talking about “cut offs” from KIA and POW, let’s assume very very few were worn in combat, but rather from various supply, HQ, unit and factory stocks like literally everything else was found at one or more of those entities. I’m not saying this means they did not exist and even in some quantity but it is a real puzzle to me. I would expect to see at least a few dozen very credible accounts of vets obtaining these even if only 500 were produced and sent to 25 - 50 different places, say Corps supply facilities or HQ for potential awards. Vets would have found at least 50 of these, maybe they did.

Yes. As I mentioned in my above posts I know of several Vet bring backs of the above patch I posted. Thanks for your interest.