DougB exposes "Champagne Rune" SS Decal Fraud and Adds a Coffin Nail to XRFacts

[tjg79]

Exactly, Doug even went so far as to propose a live video link for all to watch at the next SOS to stream a open debate with anyone still espousing and would defend CS decals as authentic in any way shape or form. He even offered to put up wager of a large sum of money awarded to the winner's chosen charity or organization.

Brian you are all wet when it comes to Doug, you are carrying your personal vendetta and animosity way too far and to the point of risking your own credibility. If your attacks are not personal, you are either playing into the hands of those that are trying to besmirch him,.....or somehow fatefully aligned with them. He received pressure and was asked not to publish his scientific findings from a so called expert .

Doug stepped back and walked away because the community yawned, shrugged, and tuned out as to importance of who was negligent - if not complicit - in the scheme of thing. I believe he became totally disheartened with what was going on at the "Expert" level, and even more so when the community as a whole responded so passively. He was never in this hobby to make money, it was his passion. He became very disillusioned with the whole thing. When he recently retired and sold his business - he basically said, "(I have a small penis) it, I don't need this shite" and moved on to more worthwhile pursuits.

Agreed, but I wouldn't say risking his credibility. I'd say damaging his credibility. I don't think M45 has any credibility quoting Doug B without a screen shot.

And, welcome to the K98k Forum John B. That's a good first post.

hkp M42 champagne SS

The WRF (war relics forum) posts below show the extreme opinions of plenty of period photographic evidence supporting the hkp M42 Champagne SS helmets in 2011 to them pretty much being non-existent in 2015.

The blatantly false statements he made concerning "plenty of period photographic evidence" supporting C-SS and C-SS having "clear period pulver and base construction" cast serious doubt on his integrity.

While DougB did the hobby a great service by his "Mythbusting the Champagne Decal" research, the long memories of computers show he was once a strong promoter of this fraud for years. What he knew about C-SS and when aside, his crusade to convince collectors of C-SS authenticity caused him to apparently see things that weren't there, such as 'plenty of period photographic evidence' supporting C-SS, and his detailed magnification studies of C-SS that showed 'clear period pulver and base construction', both blatantly false statements. His later Mythbusting research merely highlighted his earlier contradictory C-SS claims; which he has never, ever adequately addressed BTW.

Doug was the leader of the C-SS parade in trumpeting from on high that C-SS was published, had the 'scientific backing' of XRFacts, had 'plenty of period photographic evidence' to support it, had a 'clear period pulver and base construction', and even came with a COA guarantee ! All the while Kelly was making a fortune off of these things at the expense of collector's hard earned $$$. That doesn't sound like a great guy to me.

Why do you think he erased everything he ever said on that forum? I think it's because that although he was very careful in what he said about C-SS in those early days (you can definitely detect evasiveness in his language), he made some very incriminating statements about 'plenty of period photographic evidence' supporting C-SS (clearly false) and C-SS having a 'clear period pulver and base construction (also clearly false). He also said something like C-SS had a 'similar if not the same construction as original Pocher SS decals' (false once again - a painted insignia does not resemble a celluloid decal in construction).

Recall that early criticisms of C-SS by members such as ZAM, Walter B. and myself with lot# research were in the beginning not well received by Doug, who gave the appearance of being completely taken in by the forgery as evidenced by his archived statements such as "plenty of period photographic evidence" supporting C-SS and his detailed magnified analysis describing C-SS as having "clear period pulver and base construction". The move to heavily scrutinize C-SS was not originally Doug's and he therefore should not, IMO, receive full credit for its unmasking.

But you must admit that the statement that there is plenty of period photographic evidence supporting the hkp M42 C-SS helmet is absolute rubbish. It was as much rubbish then as it is today. Everything was kind of rolled into one big ball; pocher-SS, ET-SS, Champagne-SS, EF-SS, Q-SS; plenty of period photographic evidence to support all of these, right?

mrfarb, I'll say this: those we accept as our SS helmet "experts", authorities or whatever you call them, those who wall-paper their walls with SS helmets, those who make or agree with such unsupported statements like plenty of period photographic evidence supporting C-SS decals, I guess they make mistakes like the rest of us. But is that a 'mistake', or a catastrophic tragedy?

This synopsis in July 2013 represents the mid-point in Doug's evolving opinion. Now, not all champagnes have 'plenty of period photographic evidence' to support them, but neither are they all template, spray painted fakes.

And remember what the "captain" and "Crew" were saying?

"Nothing to worry about! There is plenty of period photographic evidence to support these. We have been looking at these under loupes, USB and high magnification scopes and see a very similar if not the same construction as original Pocher SS decals. C-SS are in published works by well-known authors, come with COA guarantees, have oodles of vet provenance, and now are backed up by scientific evidence - XRFacts!"

I know that this C-SS issue has been a fighting retreat for Doug, doing his best to justify it at every opportunity in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary. If you want to make excuses for him, go ahead, but how do you square his absolutely ridiculous statements about C-SS; such as 'plenty of period photographic evidence' supporting it, or the idea that he thinks C-SS was mainly a private purchase decal mainly on NS M35 and hkp M42 ?

So what was DougB telling us about C-SS ? He was consistently referring to C-SS as a DECAL with a similar if not the same construction as a Pocher SS DECAL, and as a DECAL with clear period pulver and base construction. He even told us that there was PLENTY of period photographic evidence to support C-SS DECALS.

And when tjg read the DougB statement about "plenty of period photographic evidence" supporting C-SS, (a blatantly false statement) he watered it down considerably when he regurgitated it. Yes, he agreed that DougB's statement of period photographic evidence was "flaky". Tjg will never see the culpable DougB either because not only is he not digging into archives, but the evidence that is being found he has watered down to fit in with his understanding of the "hero DougB".

Let's get this straight, tjg. The quote was PLENTY of period photographic evidence to support C-SS. That is not a "flaky" statement, it is a BLATANTLY FALSE statement.

But wait a minute ! What about period photos ? Does C-SS appear in period photographs of SS helmets ? Absolutely ! Not only is there period photographic evidence that proves beyond a doubt that C-SS was period produced, there is PLENTY OF IT !!! (ANOTHER COMPLETE FALLACY)

Why attack SS lid collectors ? They were convinced by DougB that he knew what he was talking about. The believed him when he fed them bogus information concerning a 'clear period pulver and base' construction to describe a template spray painted fake. They believed him when he told them about PLENTY of period photographic evidence supporting C-SS as TR production when in reality C-SS was first created in the mid '70s, some 30 years AFTER the end of the Third Reich.

Listen tjg, I just gave you two major areas of concern of collectors regarding C-SS authenticity (C-SS construction and C-SS in period photographs). Collectors were fed COMPLETE FALLACIES both times.

Collectors were being told, "REST ASSURED COLLECTORS! C-SS has a CLEAR, PERIOD pulver and base construction, and there is PLENTY of period photographic evidence to support it."

It seems to me, from what I'm seeing, the issue of DougB's "advocacy" for period pics of the "Champagne Rune" existing is resolved; DougB did not say that from where I sit.

 

[Eurofighter]

Exactly, Doug even went so far as to propose a live video link for all to watch at the next SOS to stream a open debate with anyone still espousing and would defend CR decals as authentic in any way shape or form. He even offered to put up wager of a large sum of money awarded to the winner's chosen charity or organization.

Brian you are all wet when it comes to Doug, you are carrying your personal vendetta and animosity way too far and to the point of risking your own credibility. If your attacks are not personal, you are either playing into the hands of those that are trying to besmirch him,.....or somehow fatefully aligned with them. He received pressure and was asked not to publish his scientific findings from a so called expert .

Doug stepped back and walked away because the community yawned, shrugged, and tuned out as to importance of who was negligent - if not complicit - in the scheme of things. I believe he became totally disheartened with what was going on at the "Expert" level, and even more so when the community as a whole responded so passively. He was never in this hobby to make money, it was his passion. He became very disillusioned with the whole thing. When he recently retired and sold his business - he basically said, "(I have a small penis) it, I don't need this shite" and moved on to more worthwhile pursuits.

Hello John B

Agreed - DougB was a passionate collector and extremely helpful to new and young collectors who asked him for help and assistance.
My impression was that Doug learnt about helmets very quickly, due to his intense interest and his eagerness to discover new things about the hobby. We all evolve in our hobbies and I guess Doug was no exception. I'm sure after deciding to investigate the CR decal further he discovered many things that not only shocked and disappointed him, but broke the trust gained and friendships he had formed over the years. Doug's enthusiasum for the hobby rubbed off on other collectors and in my opinion he will be greatly missed.

EF

 

[Rev.Mike]

Regarding DougB

"He received pressure and was asked not to publish his scientific findings from a so called expert . "

I had suspected that some pressure was applied. Does anyone have anything else on this?

 

[Rev.Mike]

Second line above was a quotation from JohnB - Sorry for any confusion

 

[timothy]

Hi guys,

I think the discussion has been somewhat derailed here the last couple of pages. Yes, Doug did leave in a strange way by deleting everything he ever wrote on GHW2 which I too find peculiar. However, he has been fighting to expose the shampain ruin fraud, and his efforts last fall set the whole exposure in motion. It might not happened if not Doug decided to out the decal by a careful analysis.

Now, the faker is also exposed in this fraud. Recently, someone who knows him outed Eric Dolin on the new thread on GHW2. It will be interesting how this plays out, as he also gives testimony that Ken N. And Karl Kithier has know the shampain ruin humper for a very long time. http://www.ghw2.com/topic/52045-the-champagne-rune-fraud/page-4?

Regards,
Rune

Now this is interesting to me being a older chap sometime in the late 70's I was at the big show at KCMO and later down to Tulsa one of these guys mentioned was at one of the shows and I can't remember which show I am thinking the latter guy mentioned came up and a old dealer I knew stated 'To be careful as he was into messing with helmets" I said what did he mean and he said "Well he has guys that mess with or turn them into something they are not" To his credit I later bought a low end ND helmet from him and it was fine it was nothing exoctic couldnt afford high end stuff even in those days don't want to get into gunshow hearsay but I always wondered what he meant not saying it ties into this but it is interesting to me as he also stated these originate up North. timothy

 

[Hambone]

After reading this thread, this is worth a read:

http://www.ss-steel-inc.com/ss_steel_authentications.htm

 

[Peter U]

After reading this thread, this is worth a read:

http://www.ss-steel-inc.com/ss_steel_authentications.htm

Talking about a selfproclaimed expert!



All the labs that test art in Europe have people with degrees on their staff that can interpret information and write a report about it not some silly COA and their conclusions which are reckognized by the courts can be used in legal issues.


This fool can't even see the difference between a airbrushed images and a decal but he has enough knowledge to do scientific testing!

 

[katzenplatz]

Do DougB's offers to testify in court, debate at the SOS and/or donate money to a lawsuit still stand? Or did they go down the drain along with his GHW posting history? Has anyone heard a peep from him since he took a dive?

On GHW's last thread on the Sham-pain scam things were really starting to roll. Names were named, the crowd funding idea was gaining traction when suddenly without explanation the GHW mods put it on a "time out". When the GHW rank-and-file got restless DougB was quick to reassure everyone that all is fine and encourage everyone to be patient when suddenly he pulled the disappearing act.

I also wonder what kind of pressure anyone could put on DougB to make him stop his revelations. It makes one wonder if his disappearance was related to that pressure and not simply because he got disgusted with the hobby in general.

 

[Hambone]

My opinions: intellectual Armageddon of not only unvetted WAF censor protected single source authority, but single source authority in control of "authentication through science". A small group of self-annointed WAF endorsed exspurts and their collections (and inventories) and the WAF endorsed XRFacts "science" ("savior of the hobby") controlling "authentication" for a fee in a helmet forum censored to protect them from criticism. Does Hicks still support the idea that XRFacts "authenticated" the Champagne Rune "decal" and that the "Champagne color" is not due to the spraypaint used but "copper in the decal"? That's what his site proclaims as of today.

 

[Rev.Mike]

Do DougB's offers to testify in court, debate at the SOS and/or donate money to a lawsuit still stand? Or did they go down the drain along with his GHW posting history? Has anyone heard a peep from him since he took a dive?

On GHW's last thread on the Sham-pain scam things were really starting to roll. Names were named, the crowd funding idea was gaining traction when suddenly without explanation the GHW mods put it on a "time out". When the GHW rank-and-file got restless DougB was quick to reassure everyone that all is fine and encourage everyone to be patient when suddenly he pulled the disappearing act.

I also wonder what kind of pressure anyone could put on DougB to make him stop his revelations. It makes one wonder if his disappearance was related to that pressure and not simply because he got disgusted with the hobby in general.

This same set of thoughts has been percolating around in my mind as well. I am predisposed to think well of DougB, but the "complete" vanishing act - without an explanation is troubling. Still, as rotten as this hobby is and as crooked as the old boy network has become its hard to blame him. I just wish he would give us all an explanation.

 

[Niblet]

Glenn McInnes is the WAFmod who decided that XRFacts was the "savior of the hobby" and thus, the waftard party line, with high post count members such as " Nutmeg " recommending that XRFacts was such a savior that it be used for uniforms, insignia, other helmets, etc. Critics and their opinions were purged. I have no doubt that the waf "conventional wisdom" on the Champagne Rune was similarly "vetted".

I never followed the Champagne Rune discussions there as I have no real collecting interest in SS helmets and I know that sect of the hobby has, IMHO, been corrupted for a long time. Accordingly, IMHO, and due to the censorship at WAF, that discussion was to me more interference and misinformation to protect "big wig" interests than an actual objective discussion.

So, thank you for excerpting it here as the end of this will certainly involve a review of what the people involved were representing. It is good to preserve this for the record.

Fabulous thread,,I have been banned from Waf for a few yrs now,,actually I have been banned about 15 times,,,Willi Zahn, Glenn Mcinnes,,Suter and the rest,,,, all Maroon Morons


So Has Hicks or any other dealer with guarantees ever given a penny in refunds? or did this all get swept under the rug?

 

[Niblet]

As would be expected with a hand painted "spray-job," I'd expect some marginally met quality control review. I think that's what they are seeing. Also, Doug B has discussed the many variations of the C SS "decal." Again, that's to be expected with hand work.

Also, those posts are a bit dated. In light of what's been presented, I'd think those posts would be revised today.

Always be leery of the "vet bring back story."

Dave Shirlin, Owner of WW2GermanHelmets.com offers a COA with his sales as well. I'm not sure if these are Hicks COAs or Dave Shirlin COAs in all cases.

But Dave claims it was with the Vet and his family for 60 yrs?? so,,,it must be period??
this statement by Dave bothers me as I have purchased several "vet/vet family obtained (no SS) helmets from over the years

 

[M45]

I'm afraid that German helmet collectors are seen by many as sheep to be sheared (relieved of their hard earned cash). The way it is done can vary; an author deciding that a painted on SS bug is period and stating such repeatedly in print, well known collectors throwing their hats behind bogus ray-gun technology, dealers passing on shabby vet acquisition stories, SS helmet 'groupies' vetting template spray painted forgeries, helmet forums rigorously defending 4th Reich helmets that have no supporting evidence whatsoever, and worthless COA paperwork and ownership histories.

If you're new around the hobby, Welcome to WWII German helmet collecting !!

 

[Niblet]

You nailed it. The censorship at WAF works when no one knows what was deleted. I vividly remember at WAF some guys disagreeing with one of Perry Floid's helmet blessings and I agreed with them. Willi Zahn contacted me by PM and told me, "those guys are troublemakers" and essentially "you agree with us and you're in good shape." My opinion of WAF at that time was formed and then solidified when I saw some of the most ridiculous camo fakes I've ever seen being blessed and then sold on the WAF e-stand for thousands.

The censor's power is controlling the information. WAF no longer controls the discussion. Whenever you see WAF or Vid at Gunboards censoring or locking threads, ask this simple question: "Who does the censorship and thread locking benefit?"

By WAF members ridiculing and WAFmods threadlocking the discussion of Champagne runes being sprayed on fakes, three years ago, in 2012, right after the subject fake was sold for $24,000.00, who did that help? The collecting community?

Heres Perry Floyd at a show, with his ever present identical Camo Helmets he is always going on about
I got booted on WAf for even suggesting these could be humped up

 

[Warrior1354]

I'm no expert but those look like they were airbrush in someone garage. Oh yeah they were!

 

[M45]

Those near identical PJF 'woodchip Normandies' show burgundy in place of red-brown. Approximation of RAL Normandy colors are a dead giveaway. Also near 100% coverage on all of them.

Certain collectors/dealers are no doubt in bed with forum Admins/mods to promote their junk to honest collectors re: fake camos, C-SS, etc...

 

[Hambone]

Heres Perry Floyd at a show, with his ever present identical Camo Helmets he is always going on about
I got booted on WAf for even suggesting these could be humped up

That pic of WAFloid and his kamo kwadruplets speaks volumes. The volume of misinformation that forum produced when WAFloid was a WAFmod while he and Zahn were tag team zapping those who disagreed was quite alarming to those not suffering from waftardation, IMHO. There was no transparent vetting as is present here IMHO.

 

[Warrior1354]

Will we being seeing all these guys at this month SOS show? I'm sure we will. I bet all kinds of their fake SS helmets and nice camo jobs will be offered for sale again. And with paperwork that says their real.

I'll also make sure too flag down my old buddy Craig Gottlieb on his segway too come over and verity for them for me. After all he's an expert.

 

[M45]

The ironic part of that photo of WAFloid and his kamo kwadruplets is that it basically proved that not only were the kamoz fake, but that WAF was knowingly promoting fake kamoz.

Think about it: if we were kamo fakers, the last thing we would want is for two of our identical exotik kamos to appear in the same photo. Collectors would start asking questions. Now if WAFloid posed with FOUR of our identical exotik kamos in the same photo, that should be obvious to collectors of average intelligence that the wool is being pulled over their eyes.

 

[Niblet]

The ironic part of that photo of WAFloid and his kamo kwadruplets is that it basically proved that not only were the kamoz fake, but that WAF was knowingly promoting fake kamoz.

Think about it: if we were kamo fakers, the last thing we would want is for two of our identical exotik kamos to appear in the same photo. Collectors would start asking questions. Now if WAFloid posed with FOUR of our identical exotik kamos in the same photo, that should be obvious to collectors of average intelligence that the wool is being pulled over their eyes.

This is EXACTLY what I said in a post over on WAF ( I asked about wear marks and patina,,and I think they ALL still have the chinstrap!!)
followed up my post with a pic of the below paint...I was booted almost immediately