Under close examination, there is clear evidence of the decals being sprayed on. There are stencil outlines on some examples, where the airbrush missed. There is evidence, under high magnification, that pain ran under the tape stencil. All of the decals are different, because of template creep. When the decals wear, they rub off like paint. When you take a razor blade to the decals, they produce small paint flakes, also showing the under layer. Some examples show stencil flaws. One shows a knife mark where a stencil was cut off. The design is a copy of a later design, but There is apparently one decal on a prewar reissue piece, before the original it's based on was even designed.
DougB exposes "Champagne Rune" SS Decal Fraud and Adds a Coffin Nail to XRFacts
- Thread starter Hambone
- Start date
Tjg, did you see that your GB mod buddy Vid the SS porcelein peddler locked the thread on probably the biggest story in helmet collecting in the last 30 years? That sure legitimizes that forum he moderates. He probably does not have mod authority to delete posts, otherwise he would have. The problem for him is this topic ties Hicks, XRFacts, and the Champagne Rune Hoax all together such that they must be discussed together. That forum takes a huge credibility hit as a result and in my opinion, so does he.
I saw that and it really ticked me off. I did like he suggested, and have the article ready to post on GB (minus the pics), but should I even bother?
IMHO, he is a megalomaniacal dealer whose personal opinions, temperament, and interests are inconsistent with the management of a forum dedicated to advancing the hobby and collector interests. He's shut down discussion of the most significant issue in helmet collecting that I can remember. He is going to use any pretext to shut this down, or more likely, he will allow some of it while controlling the rest.
The irony is that the very topic that sent him into tirades and censor tantrums was the Hicks connection which he denied and censored. However, the Hicks / Great Champage Rune Hoax connection to XRFacts is what puts the final nail in the XRFacts coffin.
Hicks featured Champagne Rune lids in his books as original, sold them for big bucks, issued COAs warrantying their originality, and cited XRFacts' (of which he was a part) as providing "scientific" evidence that Champagne rune "decals" had the same XRF "elemental signatures" as other original SS decals except that CR "decals" had an extra "3% copper" which allegedly explained their Champagne color. Of course, that would prove XRFacts to be voodoo BS right there as they are spray painted on, by fakers, not celluloid based decals as on an original. That also could, IMHO, explain Hicks' support of XRFacts. But when we started going there, Vid the Gunboards mod had censor tantrums shrieking that Hicks was not connected, and he deleted posts, threads, info, and any discussions. What would reasonable minds think? Can you trust a moderator or forum that does this?
M45
Well-known member
Most of that was already known. When you say 'faker', I assume it to be one person doing these, and I assume his identity was not divulged?
If you have a C SS lid and you think it's legit, send it to Doug B and he will show why it's a fake.
If I send in my C-SS lid to DougB, will he send me a COF - certificate of forgery that I can send in with my C-SS lid to the seller proving that it is fake so I can get my money back? I assume the COF will be $80 as well ?
I can think of a person who was, by his own statements, heavily involved in the "restoration" of SS helmets from the 70s to the 90s; Bill Maertz of "Iron Dog Enterprises". Maertz claimed to have done "thousands" of "restorations" in this time period of I recall his posts correctly. He claimed to have done work for many dealers at the time. Some fellow at GWH even posted his mint SS M42 and Maertz claimed to have done the "restoration", which caused significant consternation and gnashing of teeth. I wonder if that helmet was a Champagne rune?
tjg79
Senior Member
Yes, I did notice that my GB mod buddy Vid locked the thread. I'm not sure what irks him the most, the XRFacts topic, SS trinket dealer Kelly Hicks criticism, reminders of his past heavy-handed censorship, or his buddy Hambone slinging all the memories back into his face as a big "I told you so."
One thing is for certain, Gunboards today is not the Gunboards that Doug B mentions as the main bulwark that crashed XRF. Back then, GB got a hold of XRFacts and wouldn't stop thrashing it around. The XRFacts crew were reading those threads and doing their best to adjust, but they couldn't turn a lie into fact.
That thread being locked is pretty sad, and says a lot about how things are moderated. The biggest story of the fakery of German militaria in my memory can't be discussed on the militaria forum. Why is it that the only place that permitted free and open discussion of fake German helmets was a forum dedicated to rifles? Is the hobby that screwed?
tjg79
Senior Member
A lot of the C SS lid fraud was known and discussed before. The information was spread out over time and on different sources. Doug B mentions your lot number research. Doug B effectively tied it all together with high resolution visual images of the faker's sloppy work for everyone to read and see into one well written thread. I need to go back and read it more carefully. I just skimmed it, because it's lengthy and has more detail than I was interested in at that moment. But, I got the impression that the faker could be identified, that it was one person and that others knew of his work. This work was done long ago and hasn't been repeated for a very long time.
I think Doug B is so confident that he's "cracked the code" for C SS lids, that he believes the telltale signs of template "spray job" work are visible, with high magnification, on all existing C SS lids. So, if you've got a C SS lid, he offers his condolences. If after reading and studying his thread, you still need help to be convinced yourself that your C SS lid is a post-war fake, post high resolution pics of the lid and the proof will be explained. If you've got a Kelly Hicks COA, getting your money back may be problematic. Doug B mentions that he refunded a buyer for a lid he sold, but he wasn't able to get his refund. That may or may not change.
tjg79
Senior Member
An excellent summary and indictment of Hicks and his fellow XRFacts coconspirators.
I recall that silly post by Vid where he tries to isolate Hicks from the other XRF fraudsters, by explaining that in a telephone conversation with Hicks, Vid could "feel" that Hicks wasn't part of the fraud.
These helmets have only gone up in price. If a dealer truly believes that something is real, or at least marketable, he can refund the 2000 purchase price, and then sell the helmet at a 2015 price. A guy could what, double his money?
That people aren't doing this means that the writing is on the wall. The helmets are turds and no one wants to be caught holder the stinker.
That people aren't doing this means that the writing is on the wall. The helmets are turds and no one wants to be caught holder the stinker.
M45
Well-known member
There are two basic ways to do this SS helmet authentication IMO;
1) Study C-SS with the naked eye, under a loupe or under 200x and 400x magnification. We have been told (via archived posts) that this had been going on for years in relation to C-SS. And for years we had been assured that all was well. When XRFacts entered, we could fully depend on others to authenticate our SS lids for us via their trade-marked ray gun.
2) Lot# research is separate and distinct from method 1. Instead of gazing at fake SS decals all day and believing them to be real, shell maker, model, and lot# are correlated with known factory produced examples to produce a 15,000 entry list that shows many factory decals per maker/model, and importantly the decal drop zones, points in the lot# sequences where factory decals cease to be seen.
C-SS has been exposed IMO because C-SS is found where it does not belong (namely on factory no-decal stock well after factory decal application ceases) and C-SS is not found where it should be if period (namely in various states of wear in and among factory decaled production).
And of course, C-SS is also found basically everywhere, similar to the Ed Strache Heer decal, found applied to nearly every make and model. This is all contrary to the basic rules of factory decal application; certain decals used by certain factories at certain time-periods. C-SS as well as Ed Strache breaks these rules.
Also, C-SS lids are usually in unissued condition. This factor alone should have raised red flags, but it was just swept under the rug because of the high demand for unissued SS lids.
The statement that Doug "cracked the C-SS code" may be a bit strongly worded in light of the fact that Doug had once been firmly entrenched in method #1 and did not publicly convert to method #2 until after he had purchased the lot# book. It was then that he apparently started seeing all of these problems with C-SS though his high magnification that he did not see years earlier.
1) Study C-SS with the naked eye, under a loupe or under 200x and 400x magnification. We have been told (via archived posts) that this had been going on for years in relation to C-SS. And for years we had been assured that all was well. When XRFacts entered, we could fully depend on others to authenticate our SS lids for us via their trade-marked ray gun.
2) Lot# research is separate and distinct from method 1. Instead of gazing at fake SS decals all day and believing them to be real, shell maker, model, and lot# are correlated with known factory produced examples to produce a 15,000 entry list that shows many factory decals per maker/model, and importantly the decal drop zones, points in the lot# sequences where factory decals cease to be seen.
C-SS has been exposed IMO because C-SS is found where it does not belong (namely on factory no-decal stock well after factory decal application ceases) and C-SS is not found where it should be if period (namely in various states of wear in and among factory decaled production).
And of course, C-SS is also found basically everywhere, similar to the Ed Strache Heer decal, found applied to nearly every make and model. This is all contrary to the basic rules of factory decal application; certain decals used by certain factories at certain time-periods. C-SS as well as Ed Strache breaks these rules.
Also, C-SS lids are usually in unissued condition. This factor alone should have raised red flags, but it was just swept under the rug because of the high demand for unissued SS lids.
The statement that Doug "cracked the C-SS code" may be a bit strongly worded in light of the fact that Doug had once been firmly entrenched in method #1 and did not publicly convert to method #2 until after he had purchased the lot# book. It was then that he apparently started seeing all of these problems with C-SS though his high magnification that he did not see years earlier.
M45
Well-known member
One way to look at it, is that a fake is a fake, fake decal or spray painted. (It probably will not matter to C-SS owners) It's nice to know the finer details, but the basic presumption was laid down with method #2.
Method #1 was never going to crack open the C-SS nut by itself. How do I know this? Because people had been looking at C-SS under magnification for years, and no such revelation was ever forthcoming.
Method #1 was never going to crack open the C-SS nut by itself. How do I know this? Because people had been looking at C-SS under magnification for years, and no such revelation was ever forthcoming.
The next big red clown shoe to drop will be the COA enforcement. We don't seem to have an official response from Hicks, but I believe he must do so. There are enough of them out there, the language is the same I bet, and the "expert analysis", the expensive part, has been done by DougB. The CR hoax victims are similarly situated and could combine efforts and fees with one lawyer. They need to pick a favorable jurisdiction if they can, where perhaps attorney fees would be awarded and where it would be convenient for them.
Look at this thread from WAF:
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=578059
This guy ZAM nailed it in 2012 and got savaged by the waftarded and then threadlocked.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=578059
This guy ZAM nailed it in 2012 and got savaged by the waftarded and then threadlocked.
tjg79
Senior Member
Well, if you're a Super Mod, then you should don your cape and fly over there and unlock these threads. Gunboards needs some attention as well.
Yes, and the most disturbing thing about that thread is that rather than objectively discuss the reported observation, they rely on the old faithful argumentum ad hominem to dismiss the troublemaker.
Some of the pictures posted on that thread were used by Doug B on his C SS Lid Hoax dissertation.
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tokarev38
Senior Member
Yes, I wonder how those dismissive SS lid exspurts feel now? Better yet, I wonder if these exspurts who loved that lid so much then would pay even 25% of the price it was then
