DougB exposes "Champagne Rune" SS Decal Fraud and Adds a Coffin Nail to XRFacts

[nirvana]

bragged openly of "restoring" thousands of SS helmets with original decals, etc., since the 1970s.

Jesus... that's a thing?

 

[tjg79]

That's the problem with SS lids. The legit SS lid population has been overwhelmed with restorations and fakes for so long that I don't believe there are lid gurus that truly know the differences and can sort them reliably. The reality is that if it looks good to the right people, then it's legit and worth a premium. The good news is that at least one class of fake, the C SS lid, has been outed with data analysis and high magnification visual inspection such that it shouldn't be polluting the supposedly legit lid population any longer. The bad news is that there are still thousands of fakes that are indistinguishable from legit original lids. The odds are such that if you see an SS lid, it should be considered a fake unless you can make the case otherwise; guilty until proven innocent.

 

[M45]

What does Baer say about C SS lids?

Do they mention C SS lids in that old lid book by Maertz et al?

I thought you were logging on to GHW2, because you posted the link, started the thread, and knew what was going on.

42,000 lid restorations to date??? There's no telling what percent of the total US TR lid population those restorations represent. M45s lot number study only has about 15k in the database. He's going to have to start working on revision 8.

tjg79, I wouldn't worry too much about most of those restorations as they were done prior to lot# research, meaning that the restorers probably did not have the critical information of decal-to-shell relationships; they just began slapping whatever decal on whatever shell. And these days it shows, big-time. Lot# research has been exposing large numbers of these, not least the C-SS decals.

There are a few difficult restorations to detect, I'll admit, such as a helmet restored with the same original factory decal that it was factory produced with, or some low lot# ND M42s with correct factory decals. Factory production followed patterns, and trying to slip some junk helmet into the bunch sticks out like a sore thumb. That's how I could tell the C-SS helmets were postwar; they do not fit with factory production patterns.

(C-SS helmets are not found where they should be if period; namely in and among factory decaled production consistently. And C-SS helmets are found where they should not be, namely on high lot# 1944 dated no-decal helmets).

Now, of course, the lot# info is widely available, but that doesn't change all of those thousands of restorations done the wrong way. (Of course, always be weary of unissued decaled helmets, as most decaled production prior to 8/28/43 had already been issued by the war's end)

I don't recall seeing any info on C-SS decals in any of the early helmet books, only SS-Steel. Besides, it would be nearly impossible to tell with B&W photos, I think.

Take a peek at the 'Questionable Factory Helmets' thread and see the lids I've outed. Before lot# research, this would have been next to impossible. Now collectors will be able to make more precise judgements on these.

 

[tjg79]

Well, you've got some new information for your lot number research, but it needs to be verified. The champagne rune SS insignia are not decals (decalcomania) or transfers at all apparently, but painted insignia. It is surprising new information that these champagne rune SS insignia lack a celluloid/cellulose base.

 

[M45]

You know tjg79, there have always been collectors who were suspicious of the C-SS "decals" but lot# research has put teeth into that suspicion. And although I've never owned one myself, I still feel like we collectors were lied to, treated like fools, had the wool pulled over our eyes and betrayed by the very "experts" who were supposed to be leading us.

The C-SS saga, and helmet forums in general are like little models of the real world. There has always been those 'in the know' and those ignorant; those 'insiders' and those 'outsiders'; those 'privileged' to be privy to information, and those not privileged; those elitists, and those commoners.

Of course this new information will find its way into a future lot# book update, but the basic premise that C-SS decals do not fit has not changed.

 

[tjg79]

I think your description of lid forums applies to all forums in general, but lid forums seem to embrace cronyism and pecking order as a religion. They also seem to have the most liberal banning policies effectively protecting the status quo. I'm not surprised you and hambone have been banned from some of the lid forums.

I usually ignore SS items, but I was interested in the C SS lid, because they were premium lids on lid peddlers websites, described as legit in some published lid picture books, authenticated and baselined by XRFacts, and highly questionable in your published lot number research. That didn't make sense.

In my opinion, outing fakes is the most exciting part of this hobby. Especially when the fakes were highly prized examples and their outing rocks the boat.

Unlike K98 collectors, lid collectors seem to love turds.

 

[Hambone]

This should be interesting. Oakleaf Militaria has an M.42 hkp "Champagne Rune" SS helmet listed as "on hold" for the princely price of $7,500. Links:

http://www.oakleafmilitaria.com/german_helmets.html#SS helmets
http://www.oakleafmilitaria.com/0911h8.html

This helmet has a Hicks "COA". See below. Also see a screenshot of M45s excellent lot number study showing late M.42 NDs in the hkp 4367 range. (M45, if you do not wish this posted I will remove it). If it is shown these are painted on, game over for sure. So, what happens now?

 

[tjg79]

That's two C SS lids with a Hicks COA on that website. See the unissued M42, 1211HEL45, for $7k.



Mod edit: Here are the pics, no pic of the COA though it is referenced:

 

[Hambone]

So that's about $14,500.00 in retail refunds on the COAs right there. Would the dealer get a refund on the price he paid or the price paid by the original purchaser from Hicks? Then, of course, there would be the back-tracking of the helmets to Hicks' seller, and so on and so forth. I'm sure most people remember who they paid over $5,000 to, and if it is a dealer that would be part of their expense records for taxes.

 

[tjg79]

I wonder how many more C SS lids with Hicks COAs are sitting on other lid dealers' websites?

If you've got a C SS lid without a full money back COA, it's time to dump your junk like in the movie Margin Call.

There are three ways to make a living in this business: be first, be smarter, or cheat.

If you're first out the door, that's not called panicking.

 

[M45]

Hambone, post away with the Lot# database, but I think that lot#s in themselves, while convincing many collectors, will not convince dealers, govt. agencies, or anyone else who does not want to be convinced. They will just say that there is not enough information to be conclusive. (some would want to see every Lot# listed and would still not be convinced)

I would suggest the testing of these C-SS insignia to confirm their painted composition and contrast that with the celluloid composition of known originals. This would be the hard evidence to convince investigating outsiders, IMO.

Lot# information could be used to supplement such a move, but I don't think it would stand by itself in the non-collecting world.

 

[iron bender]

M45 I agree with you. No matter how much evidence is presented these will still be sold as a war time "decal" anomaly. Too much money invested. Perhaps someone will eventually step forward as the culprit. (highly doubtful in my opinion)

 

[tjg79]

M45 I agree with you. No matter how much evidence is presented these will still be sold as a war time "decal" anomaly. Too much money invested. Perhaps someone will eventually step forward as the culprit. (highly doubtful in my opinion)

There's always that 10% that don't get the word.

M45's lot number research didn't kill the market for C SS lids, because the lid gurus still liked the lids more than they liked M45. It should have. However, I would expect the bottom to fall out of the C SS lid market after the revelation that the decals or transfers aren't in fact decals or transfers. The evidence against the C SS lid is piling up and the latest revelation, assuming solid proof from Doug B, should break the C SS lid backbone.

What is Hicks going to do with a slew of C SS lids once they start coming home?

He could open up a re-enactor supply depot or wholesale them to Mitchell's Mausers.

 

[M45]

Apparently, some C-SS decals are 'real' and some are 'fake'.

A C-SS blog. http://ww2germanhelmets.com/Blog-1.html

 

[tjg79]

Apparently, some C-SS decals are 'real' and some are 'fake'.

A C-SS blog.

One thing is for sure, the Champagne decals are extremely attractive decals.

When I initially sold this helmet several years ago, as part of my due diligence I sent the helmet to Kelly Hicks, author and expert, on the SS helmets. Kelly determined at the time that the helmet had a Champagne Runic decal. The helmet had also been in the possession of the family of the Veteran that brought the helmet back for 60+ years. So, my comfort level in the authenticity of the decal was 100%.

As would be expected with a hand painted "spray-job," I'd expect some marginally met quality control review. I think that's what they are seeing. Also, Doug B has discussed the many variations of the C SS "decal." Again, that's to be expected with hand work.

Also, those posts are a bit dated. In light of what's been presented, I'd think those posts would be revised today.

Always be leery of the "vet bring back story."

Dave Shirlin, Owner of WW2GermanHelmets.com offers a COA with his sales as well. I'm not sure if these are Hicks COAs or Dave Shirlin COAs in all cases.

 

[M45]

Also notice with that list of CKL lot numbers, the first two are in the transition zone between decals and NDs, while the rest are firmly in no-decal territory.

 

[Hambone]

Thanks M45. XRFacts did a light show and proclaimed the Champagne Rune correct, didn't it? I think refuting the originality of these is a matter of showing that the decals are painted on by template. Though, of course, the "argument" could be made that the SS painted these on.

 

[tjg79]

Thanks M45. XRFacts did a light show and proclaimed the Champagne Rune correct, didn't it? I think refuting the originality of these is a matter of showing that the decals are painted on by template. Though, of course, the "argument" could be made that the SS painted these on.

I distinctly recall maui boasting that he "cracked the code" of the Champagne Rune's distinctive hue. And, that he is the only one that knows the correct elemental composition for a legit C SS lid "decal."

Yes, kudos to M45 for his exhaustive research work which has laid the foundation for objective lid evaluations.

 

[Hambone]

I distinctly recall maui boasting that he "cracked the code" of the Champagne Rune's distinctive hue.

Which presents a bit of a quandary as Hicks was a face man for XRFacts, purportedly quite involved in building the "originals" database baselines, yet has COAs out there attesting t the originality of these $5000-7500 Champagne decal lids. What was the "code" I wonder?

 

[M45]

Factory SS NS manufactured M40 helmets basically don't exist -
The "fake" champagne can be spotted under a USB scope.
Nobody's perfect...
NS M42 CHAMPAGNE SS....and the verdict is....
NO red flags on this one.
NS M40 SS helmets virtually non existent.
Good copy of a champagne decal.