tjg79
Senior Member
More than likely, it's called self-insure.
DougB exposes "Champagne Rune" SS Decal Fraud and Adds a Coffin Nail to XRFacts
- Thread starter Hambone
- Start date
More than likely, it's called self-insure.
Bugme
Well-known member
A COA is only as valuable as the paper it is written on, put a nice gold certificate foil on it along with a signature and you have proof that a helmet is real... Not!
I do helmet inspections on U.S. helmets but, the certificate is called a: Letter of Inspection. After I inspect a helmet, I write the letter stating the positives and negatives on the helmet. I then do a summation in which I state: In MY opinion, this helmet is legitimate, questionable or fake. It's the best that I can do since even the most experienced collector can be duped.
There are no experts, only students with different levels of education.
The COA is the "insurance". Again, a COA, like an insurance policy or any other guarantee, is only as good as who or what is backing it. If you have a $1m policy of insurance covering you by a company that is insolvent, what is that worth? A COA that really doesn't guarantee anything is worth no more than the paper upon which it is printed.
Again, (and again), the subject Hicks COA is an enforceable document which does guarantee originality of the subject Champagne decal SS lid. I predict that there will be attempts to resolve these issues "privately", as the SS bigwigs attempt to mitigate the damages, privately. If you write checks with your expertise and COAs then when the checks get called you must be prepared to cash them.
When will WAF publicly discuss this I wonder?
tjg79
Senior Member
Your Letter of Inspection makes sense to me whereas a now defunct lid testing service didn't and lid dealer COAs don't.
tjg79
Senior Member
That's a good question.
I see where M45 posted 09-25-2015, 09:10 AM on the Questionable SS Lid thread that this issue was outted on the War Relics forum by Doug B.
Perhaps Doug B. will post on WAF unless he's been banned.
There's likely enough information in Doug B's War Relics forum post to send your C SS lid with a copy of your Hicks issued COA and copy of the that forum post back to the dealer for a full refund.
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I was sent this link. Apparently there are more than a few Champagne decal SS lids floating about with Hicks COAs being sold by other dealers.
http://www.ghw2.com/topic/49207-2-m42-ss-champagne-on-oakleaf/
http://www.oakleafmilitaria.com/german_helmets.html#SS helmets
Honoring those COAs could get expensive. Money was made based upon the COAs, now that money must be refunded based upon the COAs. But how much to refund? What Hicks was paid? What the "bearer" of the COA paid? I understand that these "minty" Champagne SS helmets have sold from $5,000 to $7,000.
http://www.ghw2.com/topic/49207-2-m42-ss-champagne-on-oakleaf/
http://www.oakleafmilitaria.com/german_helmets.html#SS helmets
Honoring those COAs could get expensive. Money was made based upon the COAs, now that money must be refunded based upon the COAs. But how much to refund? What Hicks was paid? What the "bearer" of the COA paid? I understand that these "minty" Champagne SS helmets have sold from $5,000 to $7,000.
M45
Well-known member
Are you telling me that those $7500 C-SS lids are only worth about $300 as re-enactor lids? Let's see, doing the math....I lost about $7200. And since I bought 10 of them, I lost a total of about $72,000.
Somebody started one heck of a money-making scheme.
If you could cut and paste any info from GHW2 because I was banned (for discussing the connection between C-SS helmets and those unissued rail-car captures in March 1945 by US forces).
Somebody started one heck of a money-making scheme.
If you could cut and paste any info from GHW2 because I was banned (for discussing the connection between C-SS helmets and those unissued rail-car captures in March 1945 by US forces).
Imagine had there been no opposition to XRFacts just as there was no opposition to the Champagne Rune decal. The hobby bigwigs made sure that there was a Champagne rune market, to the tune of $5000-7500 per example. Let's see, that's a (today's value) $400 M.42 no decal and about $1.50 worth of sprayed on paint cost, plus a little time.......The sad part is all of the nice M.42 NDs which were vandalized.
tjg79
Senior Member
There was opposition to the Champagne Rune, but it wasn't universal enough to kill the fraud. I think M45's lot number study was solid evidence of a problem and raised red flags that shouldn't have been discounted. The lot number study conflicted with a lid guru published picture book with XRF chapter.
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We all saw what WAF did to those who criticized XRFacts, then stopped the discussion. The same happened with the "Champagne Rune". The crazy thing is that in ALL of this time, like 30+ years, it does not appear that anyone performed any magnified analysis of the painted on "decals". That's just ridiculous because that technology was available then.
tjg79
Senior Member
That's what's surprising to me considering it's been about five years since Doug B posted that he's been using high magnification and USB microscopes can be had for a little over $20.00. I've been using loupes for WaAs for more than fifteen years. Digital cameras with macro have been around for a long time as well. What's up with these SS lid collectors? Don't they look at their stuff and ask questions? I would think a non-decal SS shield would be obvious and conspicuous, and raise some questions especially since some have made forum comments as early as 2004.
tjg79
Senior Member
Also, as M45 discusses in his lot number study, these controversial non-decals appear on unissued late war (no decal era) lids. That fact, coupled with the rampant SS fakery, should have been more thoroughly discussed on the lid forums. I get the impression that the highest level of SS lid production has occurred from the 1970s onward. Albert Speer would be proud.
It shows that a small group of lid bigwigs controlled the SS lid blessings and COAs. If you wanted your SS lid to have value, they needed to bless it or you needed a COA from them. At WAF, my impression is that many lid blessings are based upon WHO owns or is selling the helmet, not WHAT the helmet is.
tjg79
Senior Member
That's the problem with lid forums. Discuss something unpopular or unpleasant and you get banned. I'm surprised Hambone can still login over there. I think my registration was cancelled, because I didn't login frequently enough.
If someone could cut and paste from GHW2, it would be interesting to read what's being posted over there.
tjg79
Senior Member
That's a very good question, because if they are all template spray-ons, it's not like anyone can do it. Also, when were they done? I've read that they seem to appear as early as the 1970s, perhaps the late 70s, with no mention of them in the 50s and 60s. They seem to be most prevalent in the 80s. Also, at least one example seems to have been created as late as the 1990s. One more thing, where do they appear? Do they just appear in the USA or do they appear in Europe/UK as well? And, are there any confirmed shipments either from the USA to Europe or vice versa?
That is a very interesting point. It's likely someone that's been involved with lids since the 60s, profits from the sale of lids, is considered a lid guru, has a lot of influence in the lid community, and may have even proclaimed them legit in published works. I wonder how many lid guys are out there that could fit that description?
It would be very interesting to trace the ownership of a few of these lids back and see if they converge or if they have any confirmed existence prior to the last known lid dealer. This could likely be done here if this was a real lid forum, but it's not and the chances of getting any cooperation from one of the real lid forums would be like starting a new XRF thread on gunboards.
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I'm being fed information and links, I don't know what they are. I got banned years ago. Our philosophy here is that we learn from each other and the best theories and ideas will prevail based upon their own merit. We don't have XRFacts and Champagne Rune problems.
A criminal investigation or litigation would be the best chances of getting to the bottom of this. I promise that in a criminal fraud prosecution some of those pompous gurus would be squealing like little piggies to avoid a conviction.
I think the idea of doing these probably dates to the 70s. I think whomever was doing it probably continued doing it. IMHO, a very good source of clues as to the who would be old William "Bill" Maertz who has bragged openly of "restoring" thousands of SS helmets with original decals, etc., since the 1970s. He and Terry Goodapple did those two "German Helmets" books we all had back in the day before Baer.
http://www.amazon.com/German-Helmet...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1444016688&sr=1-1
Iron Dog Enterprises
1975 – 2011 (36 years)
Perform "Museum Quality" restorations on WWII GERMAN HELMETS for collectors, militaria dealers, re-enactment groups, museums, TV and movie productions world-wide. Have done over 42,000 German helmet restorations to date. Use only 100% ORIGINAL parts in the restorative work. Search former eastern block countries for parts and sources. Never had a "dissatisfied" customer.
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/william-maertz/29/2bb/473
tjg79
Senior Member
What does Baer say about C SS lids?
Do they mention C SS lids in that old lid book by Maertz et al?
I thought you were logging on to GHW2, because you posted the link, started the thread, and knew what was going on.
42,000 lid restorations to date??? There's no telling what percent of the total US TR lid population those restorations represent. M45s lot number study only has about 15k in the database. He's going to have to start working on revision 8.
Do they mention C SS lids in that old lid book by Maertz et al?
I thought you were logging on to GHW2, because you posted the link, started the thread, and knew what was going on.
42,000 lid restorations to date??? There's no telling what percent of the total US TR lid population those restorations represent. M45s lot number study only has about 15k in the database. He's going to have to start working on revision 8.
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