DougB exposes "Champagne Rune" SS Decal Fraud and Adds a Coffin Nail to XRFacts

[Peiper]

The owner of two C-SS lids

Hi Oldcorps,

Your friend with the two C-SS helmets, did he buy them with a Hicks COA? You state that he received "absolute guarantees of originalitiy" on both from the top authorities.

It would be interesting to know who the top authorities are, and why your friend does not seem to seek restitution from those who sold him these helmets.

 

[oldcorps]

He's still shell-shocked. These have been on his mannequins for some time and friends have admired them for years. He hasn't told me who the seller or sellers were but I'll find out. He was really proud of them and had no idea there was a problem until he either attempted to trade one or heard about the fakes under discussion. He's at a show this weekend but I'll see if I can get him on the forum. Otherwise, he has a fine collection just from what I've sold to him. Glad I was never attracted to pricey SS items and switched to guns long ago.

 

[Hambone]

I understand how DougB might become frustrated with the lack of action after his revelations but certainly he knew that they are many decent people in the hobby and that the problem is the Good Ol' Boy network and the repressive forums they dominate. I can understand his dropping out for good but still can not understand why he would erase a decade of posts unless his goal was to completely wreck GHW2 on his way out. Judging from the reaction of GHW2's administrators, they don't feel that he meant them any harm. They didn't have to acquiesce to his request to gut a major part of their forum. My theory is that the Champaign house of cards was ready to fall even without DougB's expose, and he simply decided to save his own skin, perhaps only to preserve his reputation or maybe to avoid legal action/responsibility. These kind of things happen often in the real world, where a co-conspirator in a shady/illegal venture quickly has a change of heart and becomes a co-operating witness with the hope that they can get off scot-free while his compatriots take the fall. Had he not deleted his entire GHW2 history I would feel entirely different but given what he did there it is the only logical conclusion I can come to. What better way to CYA than to erase your entire history?

I think it was Doug's site, which he paid for. As for the "Shampain house of cards was ready to fall", well, I would bet a good bit of money against that pronouncement. It is obvious that it was not, and everyone, particularly DougB, knew that trying to open a discussion of that would end up like this:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=578059

You refer to the repressive GOB forums, and I agree with you. That is exactly why the GOBs would not have allowed this to be discussed. DougB made it almost impossible for the GOBs to put the genie back in the bottle, and hide the bottle, without looking like scumbags even to the waftarded. IMHO, being a spineless apathetic and not demanding answers is almost as bad as being part of the fraud. Those people are the neighbors who watch your house being burglarized and do nothing about it because it's "not our problem, we're not getting ripped off". You want neighbors like that? Of course you don't, and who wants to be in a hobby like that if you are a new guy?

 

[Hambone]

He's still shell-shocked. These have been on his mannequins for some time and friends have admired them for years. He hasn't told me who the seller or sellers were but I'll find out. He was really proud of them and had no idea there was a problem until he either attempted to trade one or heard about the fakes under discussion. He's at a show this weekend but I'll see if I can get him on the forum. Otherwise, he has a fine collection just from what I've sold to him. Glad I was never attracted to pricey SS items and switched to guns long ago.

You're smart. Fortunately, when I started collecting in the early 80s I was a kid and could not afford anything SS. By the time I could I recognized what a viper pit it was and stayed away from it. If your buddy has COAs he may have remedies.

 

[M45]

Why would someone involved in a long running scam with criminal implications then suddenly not only out said scam, but expend a good bit of money, time, and effort painstakingly proving it up, taking heat along the way and refunding on a bad helmet? Seems to me that it would have been quite simple for DougB to have simply done nothing. Had he done nothing where would we be? Getting censored and banned at WAF, GWH, and WR for trying to discuss this? Had DougB done nothing then nothing would have happened. Under your theory, what's better for DougB, complete reveal of the CRSS fraud, or nothing?

I have previously explained this. The Grand Plan (for widespread C-SS acceptance) was under threat from lot# research due to increasing numbers of collectors realizing it was fake. DougB realized that his ship 'USS C-SS' was sinking and he had to do something about it fast.

Seems to me that it would have been quite simple for DougB to have simply done nothing. Had he done nothing where would we be?

If he had done nothing at that point, him remaining in the C-SS camp would have caused him to become irrelevant to the collecting community. He would have been seen as grossly incompetent at best, a charlatan at worst due to most collectors realizing that C-SS was fake except apparently DougB himself who would have still been touting them as "textbook" DECALS. Had he done nothing, DougB would have been pushed aside until someone else had done a study similar to the Mythbusting studies. Then DougB would have looked like a charlatan who should have seen and known for the past decade that C-SS was a template spray-painted forgery.

So if DougB wanted to salvage his reputation, he had to move fast and play the only realistic card he had left to play; he had to turn against C-SS, the forgery he had promoted for so many years. His hopes were that by "exposing" C-SS in great detail, he would be hailed as a hero for his great work and that all of his past statements supporting it would be forgotten. This was, for awhile, largely successful due to him being hailed on the 3 main helmet forums.

But plan 2 had its problems as well. DougB would be pitting himself against the GOB's club he had previously been a member of, and publicly "out" his good friends like Kelly. He would have to spend his own money to conduct the testing and would have to refund some money; all this he was prepared to do to salvage his reputation.

There were also collectors who had been watching this character for years who began putting the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together and revealing a very interesting story. And those 'damned collectors' began asking uncomfortable questions of DougB, like why had he not seen years prior under magnification that C-SS was a clumsy spray-painted fraud ???


Here is an old post from 2011. Terry is confused, as he should have been because that was part of the plan; keep collectors confused about what was really going on so that they would be forced to bow before the altar of the great DougB for answers to the mystery. DougB unabashedly describing the template, spray-painted C-SS fake as having a "bronze pulver" composition.

 

[tjg79]

I have previously explained this. The Grand Plan (for widespread C-SS acceptance) was under threat from lot# research due to increasing numbers of collectors realizing it was fake. DougB realized that his ship 'USS C-SS' was sinking and he had to do something about it fast.

Seems to me that it would have been quite simple for DougB to have simply done nothing. Had he done nothing where would we be?

If he had done nothing at that point, him remaining in the C-SS camp would have caused him to become irrelevant to the collecting community. He would have been seen as grossly incompetent at best, a charlatan at worst due to most collectors realizing that C-SS was fake except apparently DougB himself who would have still been touting them as "textbook" DECALS. Had he done nothing, DougB would have been pushed aside until someone else had done a study similar to the Mythbusting studies. Then DougB would have looked like a charlatan who should have seen and known for the past decade that C-SS was a template spray-painted forgery.

So if DougB wanted to salvage his reputation, he had to move fast and play the only realistic card he had left to play; he had to turn against the C-SS, the forgery he had promoted for so many years. His hopes were that by "exposing" C-SS in great detail, he would be hailed as a hero for his great work and that all of his past statements supporting it would be forgotten. This was, for awhile, largely successful due to him being hailed on the 3 main helmet forums.

But plan 2 had its problems as well. DougB would be pitting himself against the GOB's club he had previously been a member of, and publicly "out" his good friends like Kelly. He would have to spend his own money to conduct the testing and would have to refund some money; all this he was prepared to do to salvage his reputation.

There were also collectors who had been watching this character for years who began putting the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together and revealing a very interesting story. And those 'damned collectors' began asking uncomfortable questions of DougB, like why had he not seen years prior under magnification that C-SS was a clumsy spray-painted fraud ???


Here is an old post from 2011. Terry is confused, as he should have been because that was part of the plan; keep collectors confused about what was really going on so that they would be forced to bow before the altar of the great DougB for answers to the mystery. DougB unabashedly describing the template, spray-painted C-SS fake as having a "bronze pulver" composition.

And, all of this is fact, because you said so?

 

[M45]

And, all of this is fact, because you said so?

So, you think your theory is better, that DougB and Kelly were just ordinary Joes were were fooled by C-SS like we all were?

You bring up often that DougB APOLOGIZED to me. Did you happen to see his last post on GHW2, the one where he was griping once again about the lot# book and how I had 'stolen' their information ? With his parting F.U. post, he calls me a thief once again. They say that talk is cheap.

In addition, tjg, we can't forget about the money trail; who was getting rich and who was getting poor.

 

[tjg79]

So, you think your theory is better, that DougB and Kelly were just ordinary Joes were were fooled by C-SS like we all were?

I really don't have a theory. I just accept what Doug B explained unless I see something that would cause me to question that explanation. I haven't seen anything to cause me to question Doug B's explanation. I haven't seen anything to indicate that Kelly Hicks and Doug B knew the C-SS lids were fake spray-jobs prior to or after the release of your lot number study. I think they should have taken a closer look at the C-SS lid after your lot number study was released. And, Yes, I think the lid gurus are fallible.

You bring up often that DougB APOLOGIZED to me. Did you happen to see his last post on GHW2, the one where he was griping once again about the lot# book and how I had 'stolen' their information ? With his parting F.U. post, he calls me a thief once again. They say that talk is cheap.

I didn't see Doug's last post. I can see both sides of the lot number information dispute. However, did they post a sign on their forum that their lot number information was privileged information, belonged to them, was not free information, and that it was forbidden to incorporate their collected lot number information into any big lot number books?

 

[Hambone]

I think we can assume innocence until shown otherwise. I think the only way that is going to happen is through civil litigation, and/or criminal investigation and indictments. There is a cadre vociferously opposed to legal proceedings in this and I found their arguments to be, at best, fallacious and asinine. I note that DougB intervened a number of times to allow "Hobo" there to make the argument that legal action was appropriate. All he needed to do was allow the posts to stay deleted and the threads locked by other mods there. He is a proponent of legal action in the event refunds are not given and welcomes it. These are not my extrapolations and theories, this is what I know and have seen. A sane, culpable person of any intellect would not advocate such action, particularly when all they need do is remain silent.

 

[tjg79]

You're smart. Fortunately, when I started collecting in the early 80s I was a kid and could not afford anything SS. By the time I could I recognized what a viper pit it was and stayed away from it. If your buddy has COAs he may have remedies.

He may have remedies without a COA.

 

[oldcorps]

I told his wife to have him read this thread.

 

[Hambone]

He may have remedies without a COA.

He may, but that's more difficult than a COA enforcement.

 

[tjg79]

He's still shell-shocked. These have been on his mannequins for some time and friends have admired them for years. He hasn't told me who the seller or sellers were but I'll find out. He was really proud of them and had no idea there was a problem until he either attempted to trade one or heard about the fakes under discussion. He's at a show this weekend but I'll see if I can get him on the forum. Otherwise, he has a fine collection just from what I've sold to him. Glad I was never attracted to pricey SS items and switched to guns long ago.

Let us know what you find out.

 

[M45]

An interesting discussion on the GHW2 forum. http://www.ghw2.com/topic/52045-the-champagne-rune-fraud/page-3

Having uttered the above, I do NOT suspect Kelly had ANY complicity in the fake CH helmets, I believe he was a believer. Any suspicions he was complicit in the CH rune fraud is flat out mistaken.

Cheers,
Cody (emphasis mine)

Boy Cody, quite a bit of "belief" there. Belief is not fact. You are going way out on a limb my friend, especially in light of the fact that Kelly made blatantly false statements about C-SS in his books (bronze pulver construction) effectively manufacturing authenticity for a sloppy forgery, produced loads of COAs guaranteeing HIS OWN manufactured "authenticity", and making lots of $$$ selling innumerable examples. If I was investigating the C-SS fraud, I would give priority to the scrutinizing of the "Big-3"; the creator, the authenticator/seller, and the promoter.

That is a misrepresentation of fact. ONE person seems to have that theory, which is not accepted by anyone else. Once you start engaging in that type of mischaracterization your credibility tends to take a major hit. It's safe to say that 99.99% of the K98k Forum supports DougB.

MY credibility taking a hit ? That's hilarious. For years I was seen as a serious "trouble-maker" on forums and was heavily censored and banned because I told it like I see it (DougB had me banned TWICE for daring to doubt his "wisdom" about C-SS). I got the sense that the general feeling was that I should have been banned from the internet altogether. No matter that I was proven correct in nearly every instance of disagreement with the "experts"; M45 ventless, blue-gray M38, B/II prototype, and the creation of the lot# book that should get full credit for exposing many fakes including the C-SS fraud.

So, everyone "believes" in DougB except me ? (sounds like the lyrics to a song).


It funny now thinking how this painted on shield fooled so many for so long. Not really that funny now but, How did some know they were fake for so long with the majority thinking they were real ? Who knew what and said nothing ? I think one lone wolf was capable of making all these helmets. I truly feel he acted along but, others close to him may have been warned ?

Boy Mauser, you are really starting to tread on "thin ice" (coincidentally what I had been told on WAF). You are starting to think for yourself and that is dangerous to your credibility if your feelings go against the accepted "beliefs".

 

[tjg79]

Were you Germansteel on that forum? Looks like you didn't last long.

There's nothing wrong with standing against the crowd, but it's good if you can back up what you claim with facts and evidence.

I think the Hobo is a cousin of Phil McCrackin.

 

[Hambone]

That is a misrepresentation of fact. ONE person seems to have that theory, which is not accepted by anyone else. Once you start engaging in that type of mischaracterization your credibility tends to take a major hit. It's safe to say that 99.99% of the K98k Forum supports DougB.

MY credibility taking a hit ? That's hilarious. For years I was seen as a serious "trouble-maker" on forums and was heavily censored and banned because I told it like I see it (DougB had me banned TWICE for daring to doubt his "wisdom" about C-SS). I got the sense that the general feeling was that I should have been banned from the internet altogether. No matter that I was proven correct in nearly every instance of disagreement with the "experts"; M45 ventless, blue-gray M38, B/II prototype, and the creation of the lot# book that should get full credit for exposing many fakes including the C-SS fraud.

I believe the "credibility taking a hit" was not leveled at you, but the poster who attributed your opinions as those adopted by this site in order to take a shot at this site. Your credibility and integrity are not in question by us. We who are posting just don't agree with your premise. That could change upon production of sufficient evidence, circumstantial or otherwise which would indicate that at least your theory is "more likely than not" true.

As far as your being "banned from the internet", others do feel that way about you, and me as well. But those qualities and your opinions which others deem "ban worthy" are what we value here.

 

[Hambone]

Were you Germansteel on that forum? Looks like you didn't last long.

There's nothing wrong with standing against the crowd, but it's good if you can back up what you claim with facts and evidence.

I think the Hobo is a cousin of Phil McCrackin.

I think "Hobo" is, in fact, none other than the virtuoso, Hobo McCrackin, Phil McCrackin's father.

 

[tjg79]

I think "Hobo" is, in fact, none other than the virtuoso, Hobo McCrackin, Phil McCrackin's father.

I could see the family resemblance.

 

[M45]

...You are going way out on a limb my friend, especially in light of the fact that Kelly made blatantly false statements about C-SS in his books (bronze pulver construction) effectively manufacturing authenticity for a sloppy forgery, produced loads of COAs guaranteeing HIS OWN manufactured "authenticity", and making lots of $$$ selling innumerable examples.

The entire premise of C-SS being "authentic" was that is was "published" and therefore "textbook". But if you think about it, the situation resembles circular reasoning, or one might call it "the infinite closed-loop of illogic".

Basically, C-SS was "authentic" because Kelly said so. He made detailed studies of it with detailed photos. He came to his own conclusions that C-SS was authentic, but those conclusions were never based on reality. They were ONLY based on his own opinions. There were NEVER any period photos of these (despite what DougB claimed), they were found basically EVERYWHERE (on nearly every maker and model), contrary to application patterns of known originals but consistent with the application of known postwar applications, such as the ED STRACHE Heer decal.

So WHY is C-SS authentic? Because it is found in a textbook. Who wrote the textbook? A known SS helmet "expert" who has authored a number of such textbooks. Where did this author get his information about C-SS authenticity?

Did he find evidence in period documentation, talk to SS veterans who verified it, or find period color photos that verified its existence ?? NO to all of these questions.

One day, Kelly Hicks apparently DECIDED ALL BY HIMSELF that C-SS was authentic. And because he decided it, he felt justified in stating in his COAs that C-SS was 100% period Third Reich production, because he BELIEVED (or stated) IT TO BE SO.

His COAs could never guarantee authenticity of the C-SS fraud, they only guarantee the idea the Kelly believes (or simply states) C-SS to be authentic (with absolutely NO supporting evidence).

The infinite closed loop of illogic was isolated because it was never based on reality. It is a closed loop because you always end up back where you started; C-SS is authentic because Kelly believes (or states) it to be so.

While DougB is no doubt highly intelligent with the ability to spot fake SS helmets from a mile away and accurately select the dozens of expensive authentic SS helmets to decorate his walls, (not one C-SS among them that I could see) he was apparently "caught up" in this infinite loop of illogic, like he was "caught up" in the illogical XRFacts debacle.

 

[Bob in OHIO]

So, when Doug was riding the wave several months ago, and was outing the C-SS lids with his fine, and excellent work... I concurrently found it odd that some of his SS lids were listed on Collectors Guild... again, just struck me oddly.

While the above observation is "interesting", it has no real bearing on this latest discussion. That being said, I lean towards M45's rationale... FWIW.