1939 Mauser K98k info needed

[jwdomfs]

Looking for any insight into the history of this rifle. It was given to me by my grandfather after he passed away. He was a Lt. Col in the army during WWII. He was in charge of a German POW camp during the Rhein campaign.
From what I have read it appears to be 1939 rifle manufactured at the ERMA factory. Serial # appears to be 6491. I see the stamps have 280 (the eagle with swastika) and I think that was the person that signed off on those steps for the manufacture of rifle?
Not sure what the 7,51 is by the year on top. Also the eagle without the swastika stamps by the serial # on the barrel? I am not sure what those represent.
Also interested in approximate value of this & if it is one of the rarer ones?
Just joined this group & would love to hear any interesting feedback regarding this rifle.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Warrior1354]

What you have a is a very nice untouched Erma made K98k. I would like to see some photographs of the stock proofs on the right side when you get a chance. And the markings you are referring to on the receiver are inspection, and firing proofs.

 

[AN-94]

Welcome to the forum! You have a 1939 K98k made by Erma. The eagle/280 are inspection stamps with 280 being the number assigned to the HWaA team in charge of acceptance at Erma. The eagles on the left side of the receiver and barrel are firing proofs. Erma used a unique firing proof until 1940 when they changed to the standard Nazi eagle atop swastika firing proof. The 7.51 is actually a 7.91 which is a measurement of the bore diameter in mm.

As for the rifle, Ermas are relatively uncommon and yours looks like a nice original one! Value is dependent on originality, condition, and rarity. Post some pics of the stock proofs and serial number (located on keel) as well as the bolt numbers.

 

[jwdomfs]

I apologize, what are the stock proofs? I believe serial # is 6491. That is in multiple places along with 91 by itself.
Let me know if these are the areas you are talking about. I was thinking of loaning it to the WWII museum in New Orleans for them to display.

 

[jwdomfs]

Are these the stock proofs?

 

[Warrior1354]

Look for these on your rifle. These proofs will be able to tell us if your rifle is marked for Heer. Meaning the German Army or Luftwaffe the German Airforce. Your stock should be matched on the underside of the stock as well.

 

[AN-94]

I apologize, what are the stock proofs? I believe serial # is 6491. That is in multiple places along with 91 by itself.
Let me know if these are the areas you are talking about. I was thinking of loaning it to the WWII museum in New Orleans for them to display.

What you posted are the bolt serial numbers. The safety should be numbered on the other side, just flip it 180 degrees. The cocking piece will also be numbered on the back like the picture. Stock serial is on the bottom or keel of the butt and the side proofs are just like what's posted above. Everything is numbered on these pre war rifles, including the cleaning rod. As for donating it, make sure the museum will actually display it. In some cases, there's a lot of people like you who donated things for display that often just end up in the backroom as it's a duplicate, triplicate, etc. If you want it to find a good home that isn't a museum, the forum trader here is a great place where it will be studied, documented here (see the pic reference thread), and treasured.

 

[a j s]

That is quite a rare and valuable 27/1939 if all matching,i searched for a nice one of these for years,and finally gave up.
To offer it to a museum,tells me you are not as passionate about owning it as most here would be with their grandfathers trophy.

 

[Leaf-blowing gooback]

Welcome aboard.
Good to hear of the intent here, unlike a recent new poster whom couldn't wait to unload his Gramps' rusty matching 1938 Erma on a clueless-but-greedy/impatient "pump it & dump it" basis after it sat unprotected in his damp basement for 19 years.

So far, it looks great, is intact & was VERY well cared-for, but (if I may impose) we could use 3 more images, please:
1) A close-up of the front sight from either side
2) A view down the bore, w/ bolt opened to help illuminate things
3) A close-up of the bolt face

Some random info/answers re 27 1939 s/n 6491:
This is not just another commom "1939 K98k made by Erma" - it actually falls into the "null", or zero/no suffix block of 1939 production, meaning that Grandad's s/n 6491 fell into the first "block" (of 9,999 rifles) that Erma built in 1939. The 2nd block added a suffix, started at s/n 1a, & then ended with 9999a. The 3rd block was "b" suffix, & so on. Per 1 classic-but-flawed K98k reference source which we sometimes use, 1939 Erma K98ks ended at s/n 5722m, for a total of 135,709 rifles.

Re: "I see the stamps have 280 (the eagle with swastika) and I think that was the person that signed off on those steps for the manufacture of rifle?" "Also the eagle without the swastika stamps by the serial # on the barrel? I am not sure what those represent."
Above describes the differences between 2 different, but important markings: firing proofs, & acceptance stamps.
Firing proofs are found in 3 locations, & are only applied after the weapon passes test-firing w/ "proof" ammo: 1 is found on the rear face of the bolt root, & 2 more are located at the receiver/barrel junction (right next to the serial nos, as seen above in pic #9).
Eagle over 280: This is the Waffenamt, or weapons office acceptance mark applied to many individual components. The WaA280 team spent much time working at/on products by Waffenfabrik Erma, Erfurt.

Please ponder long & focused on this proposed plan: "I was thinking of loaning it to the WWII museum in New Orleans for them to display."
Some free, but sad logic: More that 1 museum has somehow "lost" a donated item ..... frever. Fair warning.

Many thanks for posting this clean Erma!

 

[PizzaBert]

Unbelievably clean and certainly very valuable. I hope you share photos of the stark cartouches

 

[jwdomfs]

That is quite a rare and valuable 27/1939 if all matching,i searched for a nice one of these for years,and finally gave up.
To offer it to a museum,tells me you are not as passionate about owning it as most here would be with their grandfathers trophy.

Not offering it, was going to loan it for display. It is a family heirloom & not going to sell it.

 

[Cyrano4747]

Not offering it, was going to loan it for display. It is a family heirloom & not going to sell it.

FWIW most museums don't really have an interest in stuff like this. It's a meaningful and interesting story to you, but as far as they're concerned it's just another K98k and they likely have plenty of them. This Smithsonian is constantly fending off people trying to donate grandpa's uniform from the war, for example. Unless it's something truly significant and impressive a lot of them also prefer not do deal with loans because of the extra trouble that entails. Keeping up contact information, dealing with finding next of kin if a contact dies, dealing with the insurance/etc. realities if something happens like a hurricane or other disaster, dealing with relatives that decide to pull the object, etc. There's just a lot of extra headache compared with having it donated. It can be worthwhile for certain exceptional things (iirc. some of Paul Tibbets's items he had with him when he dropped the bomb on Hiroshima are at the WW2 museum on loan from his family), but for something like a regular, run of the mill rifle? Not really.

It's precious to you, it's impressive and desirable for collectors, but on the scale that a museum operates on it's not all that exceptional.

By all means feel free to prove me wrong, if they take it as a loan and display it I'll happily eat my words.

 

[jwdomfs]

Welcome aboard.
Good to hear of the intent here, unlike a recent new poster whom couldn't wait to unload his Gramps' rusty matching 1938 Erma on a clueless-but-greedy/impatient "pump it & dump it" basis after it sat unprotected in his damp basement for 19 years.

So far, it looks great, is intact & was VERY well cared-for, but (if I may impose) we could use 3 more images, please:
1) A close-up of the front sight from either side
2) A view down the bore, w/ bolt opened to help illuminate things
3) A close-up of the bolt face

Some random info/answers re 27 1939 s/n 6491:
This is not just another commom "1939 K98k made by Erma" - it actually falls into the "null", or zero/no suffix block of 1939 production, meaning that Grandad's s/n 6491 fell into the first "block" (of 9,999 rifles) that Erma built in 1939. The 2nd block added a suffix, started at s/n 1a, & then ended with 9999a. The 3rd block was "b" suffix, & so on. Per 1 classic-but-flawed K98k reference source which we sometimes use, 1939 Erma K98ks ended at s/n 5722m, for a total of 135,709 rifles.

Re: "I see the stamps have 280 (the eagle with swastika) and I think that was the person that signed off on those steps for the manufacture of rifle?" "Also the eagle without the swastika stamps by the serial # on the barrel? I am not sure what those represent."
Above describes the differences between 2 different, but important markings: firing proofs, & acceptance stamps.
Firing proofs are found in 3 locations, & are only applied after the weapon passes test-firing w/ "proof" ammo: 1 is found on the rear face of the bolt root, & 2 more are located at the receiver/barrel junction (right next to the serial nos, as seen above in pic #9).
Eagle over 280: This is the Waffenamt, or weapons office acceptance mark applied to many individual components. The WaA280 team spent much time working at/on products by Waffenfabrik Erma, Erfurt.

Please ponder long & focused on this proposed plan: "I was thinking of loaning it to the WWII museum in New Orleans for them to display."
Some free, but sad logic: More that 1 museum has somehow "lost" a donated item ..... frever. Fair warning.

Many thanks for posting this clean Erma!

What you have a is a very nice untouched Erma made K98k. I would like to see some photographs of the stock proofs on the right side when you get a chance. And the markings you are referring to on the receiver are inspection, and firing proofs.

Welcome aboard.
Good to hear of the intent here, unlike a recent new poster whom couldn't wait to unload his Gramps' rusty matching 1938 Erma on a clueless-but-greedy/impatient "pump it & dump it" basis after it sat unprotected in his damp basement for 19 years.

So far, it looks great, is intact & was VERY well cared-for, but (if I may impose) we could use 3 more images, please:
1) A close-up of the front sight from either side
2) A view down the bore, w/ bolt opened to help illuminate things
3) A close-up of the bolt face

Some random info/answers re 27 1939 s/n 6491:
This is not just another commom "1939 K98k made by Erma" - it actually falls into the "null", or zero/no suffix block of 1939 production, meaning that Grandad's s/n 6491 fell into the first "block" (of 9,999 rifles) that Erma built in 1939. The 2nd block added a suffix, started at s/n 1a, & then ended with 9999a. The 3rd block was "b" suffix, & so on. Per 1 classic-but-flawed K98k reference source which we sometimes use, 1939 Erma K98ks ended at s/n 5722m, for a total of 135,709 rifles.

Re: "I see the stamps have 280 (the eagle with swastika) and I think that was the person that signed off on those steps for the manufacture of rifle?" "Also the eagle without the swastika stamps by the serial # on the barrel? I am not sure what those represent."
Above describes the differences between 2 different, but important markings: firing proofs, & acceptance stamps.
Firing proofs are found in 3 locations, & are only applied after the weapon passes test-firing w/ "proof" ammo: 1 is found on the rear face of the bolt root, & 2 more are located at the receiver/barrel junction (right next to the serial nos, as seen above in pic #9).
Eagle over 280: This is the Waffenamt, or weapons office acceptance mark applied to many individual components. The WaA280 team spent much time working at/on products by Waffenfabrik Erma, Erfurt.

Please ponder long & focused on this proposed plan: "I was thinking of loaning it to the WWII museum in New Orleans for them to display."
Some free, but sad logic: More that 1 museum has somehow "lost" a donated item ..... frever. Fair warning.

Many thanks for posting this clean Erma!

Here are the photos you asked about.

 

[Leaf-blowing gooback]

Great, thanks. It's unaltered.
Bolt face condition shows that it was fired moderately, cleaned & oiled properly.
However, now it's time to "get dirty" & see what else is going-on @ that visual bore irregularity seen in the latest pic #5, about 1"- 2" down from the muzzle: at minimum, it's some very heavy fouling.

 

[jwdomfs]

Here are the images from the stock that I found.

Great, thanks. It's unaltered.
Bolt face condition shows that it was fired moderately, cleaned & oiled properly.
However, now it's time to "get dirty" & see what else is going-on @ that visual bore irregularity seen in the latest pic #5, about 1"- 2" down from the muzzle: at minimum, it's some very heavy fouling.

Not sure what you mean by fouling? Do many people disassemble these & clean them?

 

[jwdomfs]

Found another stamp on right side of stock. Don’t know what the H with eagles wings above it is?

 

[CornKing91]

Found another stamp on right side of stock. Don’t know what the H with eagles wings above it is?

Very nice. H is for Heer (German Army)

Your example is a Army Issue

Other examples will have L or K, Air Force and Navy.

 

[Leaf-blowing gooback]

Actually, 4 stamps. In order:
Weimar (folded wing eagle) acceptance.
Heer (Army) property mark.
Eagle 280 Knott-zee party-era acceptance.
Another "

 

[Leaf-blowing gooback]

Not sure what you mean by fouling? Do many people disassemble these & clean them?

Those wise folks whom desire to retain the value of an item will exercise normal cleaning protocol.

A fairly clean bore:



A fouled bore:

 

[jwdomfs]

What you have a is a very nice untouched Erma made K98k. I would like to see some photographs of the stock proofs on the right side when you get a chance. And the markings you are referring to on the receiver are inspection, and firing proofs.

Here are the stock photos

Actually, 4 stamps. In order:
Weimar (folded wing eagle) acceptance.
Heer (Army) property mark.
Eagle 280 Knott-zee party-era acceptance.
Another "

Thank you!