Questionable Camos

[M45]

WW2 German Helmet M40 Luftwaffe EF66

http://www.worldwartwohelmets.com/ww2-german-helmet-m40-luftwaffe-ef66.html

WW2 German Helmet M40 Luftwaffe EF66
100% original WW2 German camo helmet. This spray camouflaged helmet bears the quintessential "Normandy" tri-color scheme--tan, green, and brick red. The camo paint was applied over the factory Luftwaffe color and covers nearly 85% of the helmet's exterior. The camo application shows honest combat wear, and the helmet appears to have been touched and bumped before the paint had set--as witnessed in the finger prints and rub marks. The chinstrap and liner system are original to the helmet and have never been altered. All liner pins are flat and contain slotted washers. The leather is worn but pliable. The German soldier who wore this helmet signed his name in the skirt along with his unit. This beautiful consigned camo won't last long. EF maker. Lot #7984. (VH #039)
Price SOLD


There have been many questionable 'Normandy' 3-color camos posted in this thread, but here is one I like very much.
Note the factory paint showing in the damaged areas of the camo, camo on top of damaged paint below, paint has a dead flat appearance (not bright/vibrant exotic looking, no shiny/oily appearance), colors seem true to era (red brown is not burgundy), a wide variety of wear (no repetitive hack marks and pock marks).

 

[M45]

M40 'Winter' Camo, apparently groung dug from a Russian battlefield.

Looks like a Reinforced Aluminium Liner band with the cornered 'D' ring.

Your thoughts gentlemen.

EF

I consider dig-ups and relics to be in a class by themselves as per collectability and authenticating. The elements have altered the helmet to such a degree that normal authentication techniques are not effective, IMO.

 

[M45]

m-35-tricolor-camo-q-66

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/53141-m-35-tricolor-camo-q-66/

A good tri-color camo comparison, this one (which I suspect is recent) with the one just above (which I believe to be authentic).

Note some of the differences.

I see brush marks in the paint despite the sprayed on coloring.

 

[M45]

M42 camo

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/53123-m42-camo/

M42 camo.

 

[NathanLM]

I didn't like this one from the moment I saw it, and I get the impression most of GHW2 doesn't like it either. Usually unique camos have 2 or 3 pages of comments by day 2. It's possible that this is a helmet from Paul Martin, author of the camo book. He uses a very similar set up on his website.

 

[M45]

Collector Topics: Camouflage - M1940 Heer Three Color Scheme

http://www.german-helmets.com/Camouflaged Gallery Five.htm

The M1940 helmet shown below was found in a barn in the Netherlands in the mid-1990's. The helmet has been covered in a sandy mixture of "zimmerit" paste that was typically used on armored vehicles. The "zimmerit" has been spray painted in three colors consisting of "panzer yellow", "red brown", and "dark green." No decals are visible under the painted finish. The camouflaged pattern used on this helmet is consistent with that used in the fall of 1944 when German forces were in retreat through the Low Countries. It is also likely that this helmet was left behind during the intense airborne battles surrounding Arnhem in September 1944.

 

[Ramaia]

Double post ,sorry

 

[Ramaia]

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/53141-m-35-tricolor-camo-q-66/

A good tri-color camo comparison, this one (which I suspect is recent) with the one just above (which I believe to be authentic).

Note some of the differences.

I see brush marks in the paint despite the sprayed on coloring.

Hi Brian , surfing around this thread I ran into this post and realized it deals with an helmet I bought recently.
Saw that you suspect it being recent..but don't see the point of comparing those two to support your suspect..but differences are evident cause they are...different! If I read correctly you state there are brush marks despite the spraying ...true , cause as far as I can see was born with a factory smooth paint then reissued with a brushed paint and only later sprayed.
There are several wear spots and chips were you can see the factory paint or the reissuing brush paint or both
Enclosing some closeup to support my comments
Regards Mario

 

[M45]

https://www.therupturedduck.com/col...-camouflage-helmet-w-half-basket-chicken-wire

H-124
WWII German Model 1935 Army "Normandy" Camouflage Helmet w/Half Basket Chicken Wire

$ 12,500.00

WWII German Model 1935 Army "Normandy" Camouflage Helmet w/Half Basket Chicken Wire-Here is another fantastic item that we recently purchased from highly respected Canadian collector Doug Buhler. This one checks all the boxes; thickly applied camouflage finish, half basket chicken wire, named inside.....you name it and this one has it. The camo finish is dark red, green and tan. It remains virtually fully intact and has been thickly brushed on. The chicken wire is a bit loose but is applied properly and, get this....has traces of the tan finish that was used as the base coat for the camo. It looks like it may have been applied over the entirety of the chicken wire but has worn off. It is clearly visible though and definitely more intact on the thick wire that holds the chicken wire in place. This is a stunner! You can see where the finish is applied over the army decal....as a matter of fact there is a corner visible where there is a little chip in the camo. Inside, the original dark green finish is visible. There is a brown leather liner that is in very good condition with minor wear and discoloration from use. The name of the owner, Gefr. Bräuner, is seen in white paint at the skirt. The liner is a size 54. There is a drawstring and a non reinforced aluminum liner band that is maker marked, dated 1937 and size stamped, 62/54. The side of the interior is stamped EF 62 indicating production by Emaillerwerke of Fulda in the size of 62. The rear skirt is stamped with the steel lot number of 3217 (1937 production). There is a brown leather chinstrap with aluminum fittings. It is slightly shortened but still long enough to clear the buckle. What else can we say? Simply stunning and dare we say, none better? Fantastic!




This camo could be the poster-child helmet illustrating the depths to which camo collecting has fallen. Colors are not true, paint condition is pristine - no believable wear/vibrant new looking, (paint on top of wire is a bit overdone is it not?). Also the wire on top of exotic paint is a bit overdone as well - no doubt originals exist but restorers often go overboard IMO (you name it and this one has it).

Paint on top of wire would indicate the wire was placed on this helmet shortly after painting and then the wire touched up with the same paint. Quite a masterpiece for a field modification.


recently purchased from highly respected Canadian collector Doug Buhler.


I would personally value this helmet at not more than $500 as a restored piece (movie prop). I guess the $12,000 is for the honor or owning a helmet once owned by DougB.

(I will sell you a helmet of mine, and for the privilege of owning a helmet I once owned I will only charge an extra $10,000


** EDIT: This helmet once resided on Ken N.'s helmet gallery 4/9/14 (see post#92).

 

[M45]

http://www.ghw2.com/topic/53212-m35-ef66-lw-camo-pinki/

A well-worn helmet and probably worn decal was a good choice for restoration; plenty of forced wear (repetitive hack marks) and fresh red rust on top of fine micro-spatter indicative of modern spray equipment.

Another original sacrificed upon the altar of the almighty $$$.

 

[M45]

NEW! Item 836 M42 Tri-color "Normandy" Camouflage helmet

http://www.germanhelmetsinc.com/helmetssale.htm

Everybody loves a good Normandy camo don't they? I sure do. This one is an ET64 single decal Luftwaffe helmet which was painted by spray with a tan base. The green and brown was applied over that base and blended into each other fairly well; making an attractive pattern without a ton of contrast but an excellent blend. The Luftwaffe decal can be seen in outline when viewed in just the right light. I tried to capture this effect with my camera but it's difficult. The underlying tan base can be seen in the scratches. Nice liner and strap. This one displays well from all angles and is a real winner all the way around. ON HOLD

Forced wear, micro-spatter indicative of modern spray equipment, no age to the finish.

Thanks to a fellow member, this helmet was sold on Worthpoint some months ago.

 

[Eurofighter]

https://www.therupturedduck.com/col...-camouflage-helmet-w-half-basket-chicken-wire

H-124
WWII German Model 1935 Army "Normandy" Camouflage Helmet w/Half Basket Chicken Wire

$ 12,500.00

This camo could be the poster-child helmet illustrating the depths to which camo collecting has fallen. Colors are not true, paint condition is pristine - no believable wear/vibrant new looking, (paint on top of wire is a bit overdone is it not?). Also the wire on top of exotic paint is a bit overdone as well - no doubt originals exist but restorers often go overboard IMO (you name it and this one has it).

Paint on top of wire would indicate the wire was placed on this helmet shortly after painting and then the wire touched up with the same paint. Quite a masterpiece for a field modification.


recently purchased from highly respected Canadian collector Doug Buhler.


I would personally value this helmet at not more than $500 as a restored piece. I guess the $12,000 is for the honor or owning a helmet once owned by DougB.

(I will sell you a helmet of mine, and for the privilege of owning a helmet I once owned I will only charge an extra $10,000

You definately have one big chip on your shoulder - Always having a 'dig' at Doug B. Time to grow up..and move on. Your continued attitude distracts from many of the useful and interesting things you write regarding Camo helmets.

EF

 

[ZF41 K98k]

"Colors are not true"

What are you on about here? Honestly. They used whatever they had to hand, and yes whilst I agree there were your more 'standard' shades if you like, I'm sure they didn't all just pick from some 'colour chart' - that you must obviously now be in possession of clearly...

The thing about the micro splatter being post war and only post war is nonsense as well. I have had, and still have, examples of 100% genuine camo painted equipment (not necessarily helmets) that show that property to a degree. It happened.

 

[M45]

Aw come on guys! Do you think this monstrosity actually has a chance of being authentic ?? If so, then I suggest you run away from the camo hobby and never look back. You are lacking in some basic camo skills that will only ensure you being ripped off some day.

My understanding is that the "Normandy" camo utilized typically 3 RAL colors. These were contractor produced to standards. Either troopers used RAL or they didn't. If they did, then the colors should be very close to being true (re: red brown should not appear as burgundy or brown). If they did not have RAL, then they often used what was at hand, as you said.

But when you see a mimicking of RAL (as we see on this helmet - RAL colors not true) then I believe it to be a postwar fabrication: why would troopers mix colors to specifically mimic RAL if they did not have RAL ? It does not make any sense in the slightest. Troopers camoed their helmets in the field and probably did not have access to a vast array of colored paints and a nice art gallery to sit and mix paints to achieve something close to RAL. Modern 'restorers', on the other hand, often select pre-mixed colors or mix colors to approximate RAL to achieve a 3-color 'Normandy' scheme.


I said that micro-spatter is indicative of modern spray equipment because of the tiny modern nozzle the paint travels through to create it. In most cases (not in every single case) I believe this to be accurate. And it's often not just one thing that I see on questionable camos; it is usually a multitude of issues, its micro-spatter and bright vibrant colors, and forced aging/pockmarking or lack of wear, and recent red rust, etc. etc...



EF, if everyone loved DougB then we would loose our balanced view of the situation; we would have a view that lacked accuracy. For example, what is a camo monstrosity like this doing in the collection of an extremely experienced helmet authority with years of proven abilities ? It does not make any sense to me that he would even consider such a monstrosity for his collection.

 

[M45]

Hi Brian , surfing around this thread I ran into this post and realized it deals with an helmet I bought recently.
Saw that you suspect it being recent..but don't see the point of comparing those two to support your suspect..but differences are evident cause they are...different! If I read correctly you state there are brush marks despite the spraying ...true , cause as far as I can see was born with a factory smooth paint then reissued with a brushed paint and only later sprayed.
There are several wear spots and chips were you can see the factory paint or the reissuing brush paint or both
Enclosing some closeup to support my comments
Regards Mario

Thanks for the photos. What sticks out to me are the hard breaks to the paint as if the paint was popped off (as purposely with an object) and not worn of (legitimate combat wear).

 

[Ramaia]

Thanks for the photos. What sticks out to me are the hard breaks to the paint as if the paint was popped off (as purposely with an object) and not worn of (legitimate combat wear).

See what you mean, but can't be that hits on a paint that does not have a great grip can cause just flaking chips here and there ( as sometimes we see on decals applied on rougher surface,i.e. typically EF helmets so to explain , and I also see scratches and smoother wear in other places ..and the hard breaks you mention don't look so fresh..to me at least
to stress my thinking ,can't different painting methods cause also different wear?
regards Mario

 

[ZF41 K98k]

Just for the record M45 I never said anything about the helmet in question, and certainly not that I liked it - which I don't either btw.

So-called "Normandy" camos - 3 tones of tan, red/brown and green - come in all sorts of slight colour variations. Even factory painted pieces of equipment do too, even though I'm sure they were meant to be the same RAL. Just look at the ordnance tan painted equipment from 1943 - onwards...

 

[mauser99]

Aw come on guys! Do you think this monstrosity actually has a chance of being authentic ?? If so, then I suggest you run away from the camo hobby and never look back. You are lacking in some basic camo skills that will only ensure you being ripped off some day.

My understanding is that the "Normandy" camo utilized typically 3 RAL colors. These were contractor produced to standards. Either troopers used RAL or they didn't. If they did, then the colors should be very close to being true (re: red brown should not appear as burgundy or brown). If they did not have RAL, then they often used what was at hand, as you said.

But when you see a mimicking of RAL (as we see on this helmet - RAL colors not true) then I believe it to be a postwar fabrication: why would troopers mix colors to specifically mimic RAL if they did not have RAL ? It does not make any sense in the slightest. Troopers camoed their helmets in the field and probably did not have access to a vast array of colored paints and a nice art gallery to sit and mix paints to achieve something close to RAL. Modern 'restorers', on the other hand, often select pre-mixed colors or mix colors to approximate RAL to achieve a 3-color 'Normandy' scheme.


I said that micro-spatter is indicative of modern spray equipment because of the tiny modern nozzle the paint travels through to create it. In most cases (not in every single case) I believe this to be accurate. And it's often not just one thing that I see on questionable camos; it is usually a multitude of issues, its micro-spatter and bright vibrant colors, and forced aging/pockmarking or lack of wear, and recent red rust, etc. etc...



EF, if everyone loved DougB then we would loose our balanced view of the situation; we would have a view that lacked accuracy. For example, what is a camo monstrosity like this doing in the collection of an extremely experienced helmet authority with years of proven abilities ? It does not make any sense to me that he would even consider such a monstrosity for his collection.

Anyone who has been on GHW for any length of time knows Doug had some bad helmets in his collection... Sham-pain-ruins and I recall a Bad luft camo that was outed and he sent back to Bill Shea. Yes, Bill Shea sells bad camos along with other dealers. They are getting lazy when it comes to tying to figure it out.. I don't like the camo wire lid either.

 

[Hambone]

"Normandy Camo" = "Black Widow Luger"

It's called "Ambush Pattern". At least, that's what the Germans called it in the orders that created the pattern and directed its use on AFVs, artillery, and equipment. There is an order which details what it is to look like and the RALs to be used. Thus, it is someone distinct in that respect to other patterns with other colors, some of which also are prescribed by orders.

My opinions: The problem with camo helmets is that they are many times subjective. If you have a pack of arrogant morons and buffoons, i.e. waftards, who install themselves as the "High Lord Authenticators", ridiculing and censoring anyone who disagrees with them, while they bless their own lids and those of their friends and fellow dealers, we get the situation we have now. Some of these blessings are simply a result of arrogance and ignorance combined, some are a result of corruption. Both types of BS rely upon censorship and banning to get traction and become "conventional wisdom" among those who don't know any better and/or those too lazy to learn on their own, those who require a "Lid God" to tell them. Significant damage has been done to the hobby knowledge base as a result of these things.

I do not personally like the wire lid or the sprayed lid in question.

 

[M45]

Anyone who has been on GHW for any length of time knows Doug had some bad helmets in his collection... Sham-pain-ruins and I recall a Bad luft camo that was outed and he sent back to Bill Shea. Yes, Bill Shea sells bad camos along with other dealers. They are getting lazy when it comes to tying to figure it out.. I don't like the camo wire lid either.

Getting lazy? I suppose that's one way to put it. A $500 helmet selling for $12,500 is what; a 2500% markup ? I know prices have been rising, but WTH ?