DougB exposes "Champagne Rune" SS Decal Fraud and Adds a Coffin Nail to XRFacts

[tjg79]

From what you've posted and from what I've read on the web over the years, I think Hicks' SS Decal Compendium thesis is a bit dated and hasn't been updated in light of the original research conducted by Prof. Doug B. IIRC, I posted something, on the SS lid thread, about a Hicks' lid story where he writes about acquiring a C SS lid from the capture vet in the 70s. That's very interesting. In light of what we understand today, all these stories and claims pertaining to C SS lids appear thin. Low numbers, high variation, random lot numbers, many in the no-decal-era, "runes that appear to float," etc..., and now no celluloid base, all point to what should have been questioned long ago. If we were talking K98s, these examples would have been picked apart decades ago.

 

[Hambone]

If we were talking K98s, these examples would have been picked apart decades ago.

This is correct, for sure. As XRFacts was dissected. The reason it would be handled different here is the transparency and participation by everyone. It's a large, inclusive, knowledge base, with much open debate.

 

[nirvana]

While my experience in the helmet realm is much more limited (and I acknowledge this fully), it appears to me that many of those who bill themselves as being very knowledgeable about helmets are also dealer of them. If they are not dealers, they actively market their authentification services. On the other hand, most of those with knowledge in the K98 hobby are collectors that occasionally sell their rifles. This entirely changes the market and the discussion dynamic.

Am I wrong here?

 

[Hambone]

While my experience in the helmet realm is much more limited (and I acknowledge this fully), it appears to me that many of those who bill themselves as being very knowledgeable about helmets are also dealer of them. If they are not dealers, they actively market their authentification services. On the other hand, most of those with knowledge in the K98 hobby are collectors that occasionally sell their rifles. This entirely changes the market and the discussion dynamic.

Am I wrong here?

No, I think you nailed it Nirvana.

 

[tjg79]

As XRFacts was dissected.

We should've soaked XRFacts in formaldehyde first, because it didn't pass the smell test.

 

[Hambone]

I wonder if there is behind the scenes scrambling and politics? Some folks could lose big money. The cat's out the bag and it isn't going back in, however, not without some folks getting scratched up

 

[M45]

400 magnification and xrfacts

400 magnification and xrfacts

...under 400x magnification they (C-SS) exhibit the similar if not the same features of normal CA Pochers...

This [X-ray Fluorescence testing] included the champagne runes, which bear nearly the identical signature as a CA Pocher, with the exception of the presence of about 3% copper...

Here are the SS helmet "experts" conducting "research". We know now that the CA Pocher SS decal is constructed of a stacked celluloid material, while the C-SS insignia is not a decal at all, but spray painted on with a template, two very different animals. But we have been told that under 400x magnification C-SS exhibits similar if not the same features as CA Pochers, and that X-ray Florescence shows that C-SS bears nearly the identical signature as a CA Pocher.

I guess if they say it's good, it must be.

 

[tjg79]

400 magnification and xrfacts

...under 400x magnification they (C-SS) exhibit the similar if not the same features of normal CA Pochers...

This [X-ray Fluorescence testing] included the champagne runes, which bear nearly the identical signature as a CA Pocher, with the exception of the presence of about 3% copper...

Here are the SS helmet "experts" conducting "research". We know now that the CA Pocher SS decal is constructed of a stacked celluloid material, while the C-SS insignia is not a decal at all, but spray painted on with a template, two very different animals. But we have been told that under 400x magnification C-SS exhibits similar if not the same features as CA Pochers, and that X-ray Florescence shows that C-SS bears nearly the identical signature as a CA Pocher.

I guess if they say it's good, it must be.

That's yesterday's view. Some guys have gotten smarter over the last six years. Some have stagnated. Knowledge has advanced. Six years ago, XRFacts was preparing to take control of the lid authentication market. If you wanted to trade a lid, you'd have to pay a $200 initial XRFacts COA tax per lid. That operation fizzled, because they called it science, and they couldn't deliver what they promised. Their big mistake was calling it science, because that was obviously not true.

 

[M45]

I think it all shows the differences in the means of authentication. Merely looking at something (whether a C-SS helmet or a fine oil painting) and liking it and judging (or theorizing) that it is likely authentic (if it looks good, it must be good) is a far cry from amassing thousands of pieces of data and coming to conclusions based on patterns that appear in the data.

People who saw C-SS liked it and so postulated that it was authentic. Then, whenever C-SS appeared (from the far corners of the earth, from vets, or wherever) with the same type of construction, that reinforced the theory. Then XRFacts comes along and via the misunderstanding about its capabilities, reinforces the theory even more.

Then books are published espousing the theory and C-SS lids are sold on this basis (published works, COAs, and the "science" of XRFacts). And of course we have other SS helmet 'authorities' adding their weight to this (re: magnification similarities), and thus you have a very convincing overall basis for believing C-SS to be 100% period production.

 

[tjg79]

From that point of view, I agree with you. I can't seriously criticize anyone on what they believed six years ago, unless they're still espousing those opinions today. Doug B's expertise and knowledge have progressed, David May doesn't appear to have learned anything over the past six years. You have subjective opinions and you have objective facts. Objective facts can generally be repeated and confirmed.

 

[M45]

From what you've posted and from what I've read on the web over the years, I think Hicks' SS Decal Compendium thesis is a bit dated and hasn't been updated in light of the original research conducted by Prof. Doug B. IIRC, I posted something, on the SS lid thread, about a Hicks' lid story where he writes about acquiring a C SS lid from the capture vet in the 70s. That's very interesting. In light of what we understand today, all these stories and claims pertaining to C SS lids appear thin. Low numbers, high variation, random lot numbers, many in the no-decal-era, "runes that appear to float," etc..., and now no celluloid base, all point to what should have been questioned long ago. If we were talking K98s, these examples would have been picked apart decades ago.

Vet association can be congered up like an evil spirit. Apparently even many well-experienced collectors believe that this is a fool-proof method of helmet authentication. I have heard many collectors speak in glowing terms how their fake helmet was 'vet acquired'.

No doubt many unscrupulous people in this hobby realize the strong draw that vet association has for collectors, and therefore take measures to cultivate it.

BTW: not a word about C-SS on either WRF or WAF that I can see. It has been over a month since the original "revelation" and I do not hold out hope for anything further.

http://blog.al.com/ht/2007/04/following_brothers_into_battle.html

 

[tjg79]

The post quoted on this thread, and the SS lid thread are from the WRF. I wouldn't expect WAF to trumpet the findings.

 

[Bugme]

BTW: not a word about C-SS on either WRF or WAF that I can see. It has been over a month since the original "revelation" and I do not hold out hope for anything further.

But, I would venture to guess that those C-SS helmets that were for sale before this revelation, are probably still for sale? And will probably remain for sale? And will plummet in price since they can find no buyers? See, you can ban something on a forum but, you can't stop collectors from talking every time they meet.

 

[M45]

This helmet was listed a few weeks back with the caption "coming soon", but the photo has since disappeared as has the caption. The link seems to be inoperative.
Clearly a slate gray C-SS, I believe listed as CKL maker.

Coming soon...

http://www.ss-steel-inc.com/ss_stell...al_helmets.htm

I posted it on the 'Questionable SS helmets' thread on 9-25-15 (post#69) when I first saw it.

Just look at that helmet and tell me it isn't beautiful...

I think the black shield was painted first, then a template with SS runes blocked out was placed on top of that, then the "white" paint. The 'champagne' color may have been somewhat planned to give the pseudo decal some age-toning as some original helmet decals have. But the toning itself may have aged unexpectedly into the champagne hue that we see today after 40-odd years.

I think there was some selectivity as to which ND helmets received the "treatment". Since Quist SS decals are of the "1st pattern" rakish Pocher style runes, the champagne is rarely seen on Quist M40 helmets (although Q ND M40s are plentiful). CKL helmets were fair game because C-SS is a close match with ET-SS. NS and hkps were fair game because there is no factory SS decal from these makers to contrast it with. EFs used a variety of period SS decals (Pocher, ET, EF) so they were fair game as well.

Naturally, any ET, SE, EF or NS M40s with C-SS had a removed Heer decal on the left side, rationalized as a 'period-removed party colors decal'.

 

[tjg79]

Whoever was doing these C SS lids had some skill. I would think that spray-job painting the insignia would be the hard way to do it. Painting overlays on an irregular surface has got to be difficult when you're trying to make it look like a decal.

 

[M45]

Skillful, professional, absolutely. This was a 1st class operation. And with an eye to avoid Q M40s in an attempt to make it all believable points to a knowledgeable, concerted effort to deceive, IMO.

For whatever reason (late-war constraints?) the paint texture on CKL M42s becomes progressively finer over time, the later ND helmets having a much finer texture. This would have made it easier to paint a believable "decal".

tjg79, if we were planning to deceive the collecting world by making fake SS helmets, there would be expenditures whichever way we did it, either by creating a fake celluloid SS decal from scratch or a spray job. The thing about a spray job is that the trial and error phase would be less costly than with actual decals, IMO. Once the template work is right, it then becomes a matter of dialing in the paint colors. Maybe a dozen helmets were done before a specific paint mix was decided upon. Conversely, if a graphical error was discovered on our fake decal, then it would be back to the drawing board.

 

[M45]

Ss helmlets a collector's guide 1993

SS Helmets a Collector's Guide by Kelly Hicks (1993)

If you have this book, pp.75 and 77 show what appears to be B&W photos of M35s with C-SS, but he makes no mention that C-SS was constructed differently back then. These helmets look fishy to say the least; bright insignia upon worn paint finishes, etc...

"Based on having seen these decals since the 1970s, my viewpoint has always been that they are real....In subsequent years when I saw them, I considered recognized them as part of the SS decal pantheon."

We can only guess where C-SS was physically created, (a graphics company perhaps?) but the theoretical basis for their "originality" seems to have began right here; one person seeing C-SS, liking it, and theorizing that it was authentic. What followed subsequently, (acquisition from various sources - vets etc...the "science" of XRFacts, etc...) seemed to reinforce the theory. But strangely, the fact that friends sometimes expressed skepticism or C-SS not being universally accepted was brushed aside.

Yes, I realize the post is 6 years old and not updated, but it shows the thinking that perpetuated the C-SS myth. If we understand how it took hold so firmly, we may be able to prevent myth from gaining ground the next time. (emphasis added)

"They [C-SS] are either very early prewar foreign made variants..."

"The fakes that are now being called variants are very dangerous to collectors."

"That is why I will fight hard any variant claim be proven with facts, logical explanation and now scientific testing [XRFacts]."

I see the above statements as lacking any substance. We now know that XRFacts is worthless in this context. What about facts? Are there any period photos, period documentation, eye witnesses, or vets/collectors who have seen C-SS prior to the 1970s? NO. What about logical explanation? Someone seeing C-SS, liking it, and postulating authenticity based primarily on that alone is not logical at all.

So then, facts, logical explanation, or scientific testing concerning C-SS does not exist; it is a myth.

 

[tjg79]

SS Helmets a Collector's Guide by Kelly Hicks (1993)

If you have this book, pp.75 and 77 show what appears to be B&W photos of M35s with C-SS, but he makes no mention that C-SS was constructed differently back then. These helmets look fishy to say the least; bright insignia upon worn paint finishes, etc...

How can you distinguish a C SS lid from a non-C SS lid depicted in a black and white photo? I would think you'd need a color photo to see the "C" hue.

 

[nirvana]

How can you distinguish a C SS lid from a non-C SS lid depicted in a black and white photo? I would think you'd need a color photo to see the "C" hue.

My guess is that its from the details of the decal that are visible in period photos. The really well posed studio shots show a lot of minor bits.

 

[M45]

Hicks says there are two C-SS M35s in his 1993 book, an NS and an ET. The ones I found have the ET style decal on M35s, the decals having that thick black border characteristic of many C-SS. Also the white backgrounds seem to be very slightly subdued (of course not a champagne color due to B&w photos). Also, the overall new condition of the decals does not match the worn finishes of the helmets.