DougB exposes "Champagne Rune" SS Decal Fraud and Adds a Coffin Nail to XRFacts
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M45
Well-known member
As C-SS lids have apparently fooled most collectors, they are far too good to have been associated with movies, IMO. Have you seen some of the lids used in the old movies? The Great Escape had some hideous Luftwaffe lids. They spend all that money on actors, props, vehicles, uniforms, but not much on lids, one of the most conspicuous parts of a German soldier.
You mentioned 'warehouse', but how about railroad cars ? Many of those unissued slate gray M42 ckl helmets found on captured trains have ended up with C-SS decals.
As Charlie Vaughn said years ago, they have got the graphics down about 98%, other than the thinness issue and champagne color, a decal that would fool most collectors. No, these were produced to deceive. No doubt about it.
You mentioned 'warehouse', but how about railroad cars ? Many of those unissued slate gray M42 ckl helmets found on captured trains have ended up with C-SS decals.
As Charlie Vaughn said years ago, they have got the graphics down about 98%, other than the thinness issue and champagne color, a decal that would fool most collectors. No, these were produced to deceive. No doubt about it.
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M45
Well-known member
I'm getting more suspicious as the days roll on. His original statement on WRF was 9/21, over two weeks ago. Why did he not just present his proof then? I wonder what his 'proof' will consist of; naming names, places, time periods, companies ?
Here is the post on WRF with C-SS decal (emphasis added): http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/ss-helmet-forum/ss-runic-decal-reference-section-167624/
Addendum to this decal post, Sept 21. 2015
This decal type family has been controversial for a number of years now. It is published yet some do not believe it to be real, many collectors who I deeply respect and have conversed with at length with on the subject. I believed them to be real because that is what it said in the reference books and my opinion was formed by the experience of others. However my opinion changed over the years as my experience and knowledge grew. Doing some further research I printed some thoughts in a thread by Shaun Winkler Error - German Helmet Walhalla (post 21) back in June of 2013 where I stated M42 ckl and M40 any shell type I had concerns but no conclusive proof. The fact that all M42 decals of this type were near mint, the runes tend to “float” in the shield, and there being 7 variants, was of great concern however.
Well this month I believe I found the proof and confirmation that I need for my comfort zone, that not just the M42 ckl and M40 shells, but all champagne decals which I believe now are in fact bad and are template painted sprayed fakes. I am sure this will raise the ire and objection of some who believe otherwise, especially as these have been extensively published. However a book is merely a snapshot in time, most are a decade old or older, and in the latest reference book by Ken N these NS decals are conspicuously absent. Advancements in digital magnification, studious databasing, internet knowledge sharing and detailed research means knowledge moves forward and what we thought to be true can change, as it has for me.
Of the core SS decals, the Q, Pocher, EF and ET there is no controversy and never has been. There is plenty of evidence to know what is real and what is not including decal to shell relationships, correct graphic styles, print methodology as well as construction. The NS (Champagne) rune has never had this sort of luxury, nobody knows where they were made, who made them, there have never been any loose ones to study, and they are found on all shell manufacturers and on reissues without rhyme nor reason. However they are prevalent on high lot number no decal M42’s and on NS M35 helmets in police lot number ranges with no discernible pattern. They have many “variants” and inconsistencies in the rune positions on same decals and they have a very sharp print and lack a cellulose base.
I am sure the subject matter will continue to be controversial but I felt the need to make an addendum to this thread I created as it is based on what I knew then and what I know and believe today. I do want to thank Ade for his assistance and cooperation in doing so, as sharing information is critical to keeping the hobby safe and growing.
I also know I departed this forum, and wish those who continue to participate here well. I now run the GHW2 forum with RoyA, and time with that, family and business, means I have to pick my poison so you will find me there if you wish to discuss further.
Thanks
Doug
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tjg79
Senior Member
I can't rule it out. If these were template painted, why would a faker do it that way when making a decal would be an easier,more consistent, and period correct method. I was thinking that perhaps a prop company contracted these out for a film contract and the lid fabricator just decided to paint the shield insignias. By chance, they did such a fine job that they've fooled collectors into thinking they're legit. Apparently, they're inconsistent and that inconsistency has been interpreted as some are legit and some are fake with at least seven variations of the legit portion.
There were a lot of WWII films made in the 60s and 70s so there was a demand for lid props. Reportedly, these started showing up in the 70s. That guy hambone posted, Maertz I think it's spelled, fabricated lids for film projects I believe I recall reading. A guy like that could produce these easily. I can think of a scenario where he's awarded a film related contract for x number of lids, but either doesn't have the decals or doesn't want to use his stock, so he decides to just do a template spray-job.
An interesting and humorous fact is that their handheld XRF signature is similar to that of a legit Pocher and therefore, the XRFacts clowns have certified them legit.
He's on vacation it looks like. I don't think he'd roll this out and not finish it up. This certainly builds the anticipation and attention level, though I don't see anything discussed at WAF. I guess WAF is treating this like a "move along little people, nothing to see" moment, like XRFacts, which WAFmods touted as the "savior of the hobby"
M45
Well-known member
tjg79,
that's in interesting possibility. I'm not saying it's incorrect, just looking at all the angles. Movies typically use the cheapest thing available, such as postwar West German M40s or Spanish M42s, or reworked WWII lids. These are painted up, decaled, camoed or what have you. The C-SS insignia is typically found on unissued M42 hkp and CKL helmets with a few EFs and less typically seen on a wide assortment of other original lids. This base is 100% authentic and thus very expensive. Most of these remain in unissued condition (sans storage wear) to this day, so they were never actually used in movies.
I can't see a connection to movies. The base is far too expensive. It would have cost a fortune to produce these because the helmets are authentic. Movies are always trying to find ways to reduce costs. Also, the template set up would have been expensive IMO because it had to be near perfect to be believable. As far as I can tell, movies were never that concerned about a dead-on authentic look to German helmets.
Helmet fakers are, on the other hand, very concerned about a dead-on look to helmets. Lets say 200 of these were painted up. Finding 200 original SS decals would be difficult, let alone the age factor of the decals (cracking, damage) that could cause them to tend to break apart upon application. Too much variation, too much expense, too many unforeseen mishaps to occur in this scenario. Besides, once the original decal is applied, it no longer has its distinct value as a loosie, so that loss factor has to be factored into the overall asking price of the helmet. Producing fake SS decals would have incurred the cost of set up and then the scrutiny of collectors. Remember all of those fine details collectors look at? If you get it wrong, then its back to the drawing board.
But paint is inexpensive and theoretically unlimited. Once the template work is done, then potentially thousands of these C-SS insignia could be painted up for some tidy profits. Since the painted C-SS insignia will look brand new afterwards, we must use unissued helmets to make it believable. Period, photographic evidence shows the captured railcars full of German M42s (March 1945) that were captured by US forces. The wavy metal near the scallops, typical of CKL M42 manufacture, is apparent. So that's why most of these C-SS lids use unissued CKL lids as the base, IMO.
The profit today on a C-SS helmet is in the neighborhood of $7000 per copy, (subtracting the $400 cost of the helmet and $100 odd cost for labor, template and paint).
that's in interesting possibility. I'm not saying it's incorrect, just looking at all the angles. Movies typically use the cheapest thing available, such as postwar West German M40s or Spanish M42s, or reworked WWII lids. These are painted up, decaled, camoed or what have you. The C-SS insignia is typically found on unissued M42 hkp and CKL helmets with a few EFs and less typically seen on a wide assortment of other original lids. This base is 100% authentic and thus very expensive. Most of these remain in unissued condition (sans storage wear) to this day, so they were never actually used in movies.
I can't see a connection to movies. The base is far too expensive. It would have cost a fortune to produce these because the helmets are authentic. Movies are always trying to find ways to reduce costs. Also, the template set up would have been expensive IMO because it had to be near perfect to be believable. As far as I can tell, movies were never that concerned about a dead-on authentic look to German helmets.
Helmet fakers are, on the other hand, very concerned about a dead-on look to helmets. Lets say 200 of these were painted up. Finding 200 original SS decals would be difficult, let alone the age factor of the decals (cracking, damage) that could cause them to tend to break apart upon application. Too much variation, too much expense, too many unforeseen mishaps to occur in this scenario. Besides, once the original decal is applied, it no longer has its distinct value as a loosie, so that loss factor has to be factored into the overall asking price of the helmet. Producing fake SS decals would have incurred the cost of set up and then the scrutiny of collectors. Remember all of those fine details collectors look at? If you get it wrong, then its back to the drawing board.
But paint is inexpensive and theoretically unlimited. Once the template work is done, then potentially thousands of these C-SS insignia could be painted up for some tidy profits. Since the painted C-SS insignia will look brand new afterwards, we must use unissued helmets to make it believable. Period, photographic evidence shows the captured railcars full of German M42s (March 1945) that were captured by US forces. The wavy metal near the scallops, typical of CKL M42 manufacture, is apparent. So that's why most of these C-SS lids use unissued CKL lids as the base, IMO.
The profit today on a C-SS helmet is in the neighborhood of $7000 per copy, (subtracting the $400 cost of the helmet and $100 odd cost for labor, template and paint).
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M45
Well-known member
He's on vacation it looks like. I don't think he'd roll this out and not finish it up. This certainly builds the anticipation and attention level, though I don't see anything discussed at WAF. I guess WAF is treating this like a "move along little people, nothing to see" moment, like XRFacts, which WAFmods touted as the "savior of the hobby"
According to one of Doug's posts, some/most do not believe they (C-SS) existed. So I think lot# research has convinced most collectors that they are fake. The only thing we don't (didn't ) know was the fine details. Now we know they were spray painted on with a templates. What further info will be revealed is to be seen. If that is the extent of it, then I've heard enough.
We know 'what' (that C-SS is fake), we know when and how (1970s, spray painted template). What else is left to know? Why? (to defraud). Where? Possibly New York, but does that matter? Who? That is really the only big question left.
(yes, I've been watching too much 'Get Smart')
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I believe these were done to deceive and the time frame of 70s to 90s makes sense with respect to what was going on then in the market. I was there and collecting then. The interest was in mint helmets and mint decals, thus a mint M.42 SS helmet with a mint decal would have been king, the most desirable of helmets. Back then, the knowledge base was limited to a few guys, like Hicks, etc. What these guys said ruled. There were no internet forums nor the exchange of information as we've had in the last 10-15 years.
I have already stated the what and the who I thought could shed light on this subject. I also believe his skill set would have been of use in making these. I remember, I believe on GHW, some guy posting up his lovely mint M.42 SS single decal and Martz, posting as "Iron Dog", said that he recognized the helmet as one of his "restorations". It caused quite a bit of drama. I wouldn't try to over think this.
I have already stated the what and the who I thought could shed light on this subject. I also believe his skill set would have been of use in making these. I remember, I believe on GHW, some guy posting up his lovely mint M.42 SS single decal and Martz, posting as "Iron Dog", said that he recognized the helmet as one of his "restorations". It caused quite a bit of drama. I wouldn't try to over think this.
Bugme
Well-known member
Would the mods possibly delete it if he did?
tjg79
Senior Member
Well, I'm just trying to be open minded and look at this case from all the angles. Unless it's a known fact, it's just speculation. The bases may be fairly expensive today, but back in the 50s and 60s they may have been fairly inexpensive. As this type of war material was disposed of back then, some enterprising individuals may have seen their potential and that they could serve as good film props and bought a boat load and stored until they had a requirement. Then, they could have been "dressed up" for the specific requirement.
It just seems odd that an intentional faker would go to the extra work to do a template spray-job with all the variation expected in hand work.
Hambone's theory makes very good sense as well. And, he has pointed out a guy that has the skills and means to do this sort of work.
The lid's distinctive hue has been described as patina. Perhaps they didn't acquire that "hue" until they'd adequately aged and that could have been an entirely unintentional aspect of their condition. Perhaps the shield color more closely matched legit SS insignia when they were first born.
tjg79
Senior Member
It could very well be a verboten topic over there. Doug B may just be abiding by WAF forum decorum, because he's not an offensive type of guy.
M45
Well-known member
That's a good point about the unintentional aspect of the aging process. It was also mentioned by Walter B. that no other known original SS decal has such a hue. Original celluloid SS decals do not age that way. It's one of those unintentional consequences of fraud, I suppose, and provenance has been smiling on collectors. A white background on these would have made it that much more difficult to spot.
I don't know about anyone else, but I feel as though I've been played for a fool by this entire Champagne saga. Of course C-SS appears to have a thin, "sprayed-on look' to it, of course there is a hue to this "decal" unlike any of the known SS decals (because it's not a decal). Of course when we start asking serious questions, we get buried under a steaming pile of B.S., so that after we finally claw our way out of it (by attempting to read and make sense of the 'novel') we are so weary we just say, "ok......whatever you say".
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M45
Well-known member
Lets see...what was I banned from GHW for ?..................oh that's right! I was discussing the link between C-SS decals on unissued CKL M42s and the unissued CKL M42s found in the rail-car cache in March 1945.
tjg79
Senior Member
I think these lids were first legitimized in Hicks' first lid picture book. After that, you were arguing against a published reference by lid guru, XRFacts co-founder, lid picture book with XRF chapter author, and paid C SS lid authenticator, Kelly Hicks. On the other lid forums, if you drop his name all discussion of legitimacy ends.
M45
Well-known member
I thought I might look over the "Champagne Synopsis" a bit at a time since the entire post (#134) can be a bit overbearing:
"Frank asked me via email for information regarding lot numbers on these but nobody can make any sense of these by lot numbers. There are so few you won’t find doubles and it is a vast oversimplification of the subject matter. To discuss this decal on its own and in the general sense forums discuss them (i.e.; It’s real, no its not, yes it is, no its not) without facts is pointless. The conversation on this decal in the past has been vastly oversimplified and been typically driven by those who mainly have never held an SS helmet never mind conducted an intensive in-depth study on SS decals.
Since the Champagne SS, similar to the Ed Strache Heer decal, was applied postwar without regard to maker, model or lot number, then C-SS lot numbers would show no rhyme or reason to them, other than the fact that many show up in no-decal territory, because late ND helmets are the most available (as opposed to reissued ND M35s and M40s with factory style paint which are much less common - Q M40s excepted). Now it is clear why we don't see doubles of these. A vast oversimplification of the matter? I think it is Doug who is making the issue more complex than it really is. Make the issue so "complex" that only the "experts" can figure it out. That's right, the issue has been driven by those who are not even SS helmet "experts", those who have never even held an SS helmet, never mind conducted this "extensive research" like Doug and Kelly have.
In the interest of not having to revisit this topic which appears about once or twice a year with always the same result here are my thoughts of what I see is a highly complex matter and for what it is worth, you can take or leave them. Pardon the exhaustive post, but I believe it is necessary.
Doug has been promoting C-SS for years. Now that doubts and questions have arisen about their authenticity, collectors naturally have questions about this. But since these questions never receive sufficient answers, the questions continue. Once again, this is a "highly complex matter", and complex matters can only be understood and explained by "experts". Now listen carefully young students, and our teacher will explain to us this very complex issue. Now, Doug is growing tired of having to re-visit this issue twice a year so he is going to lay it all out for us once and for all. Once he has completely explained the matter, that should suffice, in other words, after this, no more questions about C-SS.
"Frank asked me via email for information regarding lot numbers on these but nobody can make any sense of these by lot numbers. There are so few you won’t find doubles and it is a vast oversimplification of the subject matter. To discuss this decal on its own and in the general sense forums discuss them (i.e.; It’s real, no its not, yes it is, no its not) without facts is pointless. The conversation on this decal in the past has been vastly oversimplified and been typically driven by those who mainly have never held an SS helmet never mind conducted an intensive in-depth study on SS decals.
Since the Champagne SS, similar to the Ed Strache Heer decal, was applied postwar without regard to maker, model or lot number, then C-SS lot numbers would show no rhyme or reason to them, other than the fact that many show up in no-decal territory, because late ND helmets are the most available (as opposed to reissued ND M35s and M40s with factory style paint which are much less common - Q M40s excepted). Now it is clear why we don't see doubles of these. A vast oversimplification of the matter? I think it is Doug who is making the issue more complex than it really is. Make the issue so "complex" that only the "experts" can figure it out. That's right, the issue has been driven by those who are not even SS helmet "experts", those who have never even held an SS helmet, never mind conducted this "extensive research" like Doug and Kelly have.
In the interest of not having to revisit this topic which appears about once or twice a year with always the same result here are my thoughts of what I see is a highly complex matter and for what it is worth, you can take or leave them. Pardon the exhaustive post, but I believe it is necessary.
Doug has been promoting C-SS for years. Now that doubts and questions have arisen about their authenticity, collectors naturally have questions about this. But since these questions never receive sufficient answers, the questions continue. Once again, this is a "highly complex matter", and complex matters can only be understood and explained by "experts". Now listen carefully young students, and our teacher will explain to us this very complex issue. Now, Doug is growing tired of having to re-visit this issue twice a year so he is going to lay it all out for us once and for all. Once he has completely explained the matter, that should suffice, in other words, after this, no more questions about C-SS.
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