ZF41 Study

[Nigromontanus]

The riddle of the cxn "M" scope

Ok, normally I try to find out everything myself, but with this I may fail after many years of study. Maybe this thread will help.
1. There are scopes of the maker cxn marked with an "M"
2. These scopes very often bear no serial number. This is due to the fact that the ocular has been changed to a shorter one, which has been done IMO AFTER production and putting serial number to the "normal" serialized ocular.
3. First "M" scope observed is 128xxx, being a trial scope, since the shortened ocular is being made of 2 parts, a ring and the lense part. later shortened ones are a single part.
4. These oculars lead to shortened distance for finding the aim. ZF41 is normally made for k98, needing (from memory) about 27cm, this one needing less.
5. My theory was that these were made for MP43/1. However, I made pics of the one from Aberdeen Proving Ground, only finding that it had a standard dow scope (if I remember correctly); also the distance scaling was the same (But 8x33 would need a different elevation, I presume); but M scopes do not have a different scaling either. Further, having put the Aberdeen mount on a MP43/1 (both being in a collection in Great Britain now) I was not sure that this combination called for a different eye distance. So conclusion that M scopes were rather NOT made for MP43/1.
6. So on the whole all I not about this scope is that I know nothing about this scope. I pass the question. Please find attached pic of both prototype and standard M scope. Pic is for personal use only, since I may publish it once

 

[kentomon]

Very interesting!
I have no information on these cxn "M" scopes.
I have also seen this thread.
http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?9830-quot-M-quot-marking-on-ZF41

They are all cxn ZF40*-41 or ZF41 Type2.
And the existence of the unusual hole at the place where the mount ring holds the scope suggests the mount used was different from normal.
As already mentioned, these were done after late 1943.
I have no idea what weapon needed ZF41 at that time.

 

[Nigromontanus]

Do not follow a false clue. The holes on this very one specimen were added postwar. All others do not have I have had 6 Ms so far in my hand, including the one with the holes. When you also have no idea, then not likely much will come out.

 

[Nigromontanus]

Well, I THINK the holes were added postwar, because the others do not have it. Maybe it is true and indicated in the other thread that these were intended for G 41. However, I have found them very often mounted on ZF41 mounts, but all without gun number, thus not issued. I do not quite believe this theory that at some time the gun number was not put on the mount.

 

[kentomon]

Nigromontanus,
No, I have not seen a single one in my hand, only in internet pictures.
Now, I understand that most of them are without the "hole". But I thought this was normal from sauer's reply on the other thread.

(Sauer, sorry for using your picture.)
So there are at least 2 or 3 examples of the "hole"?

I don't think these cxnM scopes were for G41.
As you mentioned, these modification were done after the production of the original scope. Using the reworked ZF40* scopes for G41 again doesn't make sense.

Again, I wonder what weapon needs ZF41 in the late or after 1943 if it is not MP43?
No possibility that the modification were done postwar?

 

[Nigromontanus]

No, I think there is only one. I must check if the MP 43/1 mount has screws which would fit. I will ask the owner to check.

 

[amodio]

My three scopes for your database!

Thank you for your comments. It is really good to get replies when thinking a bit that perhaps no one will be interested. Now, I will continue with pleasure.

Ken

Great stuff Ken!
I have three scopes to share with you. You make no mention of the ZF40, two that I have are marked ZF40 which has been machined out and stamped ZF41 and ZF41/1.

ZF40-41 cxn It has no serial number, has a Blue + Has the short eye piece and is also marked with an 'M' could this be Kriegsmarine?
ZF40-41/1 cxn It has serial number 155277 has a Blue + and Blue Triangle
ZF41/1 cxn It has serial number a149413 has a Blue +

Would you like photos?

Peter

 

[kentomon]

Great stuff Ken!
I have three scopes to share with you. You make no mention of the ZF40, two that I have are marked ZF40 which has been machined out and stamped ZF41 and ZF41/1.

ZF40-41 cxn It has no serial number, has a Blue + Has the short eye piece and is also marked with an 'M' could this be Kriegsmarine?
ZF40-41/1 cxn It has serial number 155277 has a Blue + and Blue Triangle
ZF41/1 cxn It has serial number a149413 has a Blue +

Would you like photos?

Peter

Thank you for your cooperation!
Yes, I would like to see the photos very much.

So you also have the ZF41"M" which had just been discussed above.
The meaning of the "M" remains unknown.

 

[amodio]

Hi. please see photos of my ZF 40-41 M scope, bought it with two others back in 1987, I think.....
Thanks, Peter.

 

[amodio]

Zf40-41/1

The second of my ZF41 scopes......

 

[mauser99]

I collect German optic's mostly Binos. There was a short period of time where they added an [ M ] on the prism plate to determine used of metric threads. This practice was short lived.. Now every chunk head on ebay sells them a Kriegsmarine. Because of the M. CXN also made bino's in large quantity so the practice may have carried over to the scope as well ? Just a thought.

 

[amodio]

Zf41/1

The third of my ZF41 scopes.....

 

[kentomon]

The third of my ZF41 scopes.....

Thank you very much for your photos!

 

[GunKraut]

Strange objective screw

The pictured objective screw was observed on a Z.F. 41/1 milled and re-stamped "eso" scope, S/N 154206. The scope was found in this condition in the 1960's in Hamburg/Germany out on the curb on trash collection day. The vertical and horizontal slots for the adjustment wrench are not perpendicular. The screw is definitely not a home made part. Has anybody ever seen something like this?

 

[Nigromontanus]

The pictured objective screw was observed on a Z.F. 41/1 milled and re-stamped "eso" scope, S/N 154206. The scope was found in this condition in the 1960's in Hamburg/Germany out on the curb on trash collection day. The vertical and horizontal slots for the adjustment wrench are not perpendicular. The screw is definitely not a home made part. Has anybody ever seen something like this?

View attachment 96294

From serial number this appears rather to be a cxn scope. As for the part, maybe it was not sufficiently produced and had to be corrected by hand.

 

[THunter]

Has anybody seen a type 2 cxn without serial number? I cannot think of a reason for it not having a SN except its a very late war scope and was captured at the factory?!

 

[Andreabert]

hi guys,as you here are experts on zf41 scopes, i need your help. i want to buy a scope for my g43.

Yesterday i found this one, at good price. the Mount is a repro, but im not sure about the scope.
on my research, it appear to be , for me, not an original WW2. but i need to heard about Others idea.
these are the pics

thanks
andy

 

[trinxet]

eso

for your database

 

[GunKraut]

the Mount is a repro, but im not sure about the scope.
on my research, it appear to be , for me, not an original WW2. but i need to heard about Others idea.
these are the pics

I think it's a post war Meopta scope that has been gussied up to resemble a wartime ddx scope. The forming of the scope body is not crisp enough to fool me into believing it's a Voigtlander. Someone made a half a$$ effort to remove the arrow shaped elevation pointer. In this low serial number range I would expect to find a stretched open triangle instead of an arrow. The fonts of the letter "G" and number "6" are not consistent with what I have on hand. I have doubts about its alleged WW2 provenance. Meopta scopes are of good quality and if you need a scope for a G43 shooter, this one could be it if the price is right.

The mount is a poor fake, worth about $80 - $120, the scope probably around $300 - $350 if the lenses are crystal clear. Subtract $150 - $200 if the lenses are foggy as you may not be able to completely clean them (limited cleaning access by design).

 

[kentomon]

for your database

Thank you!