ZF41 Study

[Nigromontanus]

most of these have been or are are mine

bmj ZF41 60567 O blau Montage "B","4", #887, flache Rollen, WaA 214; Waffennr 2531 übergraviert
bmj ZF41 63555 O blau Montage "m","4", #767, flache Rollen, WaA 214; Waffennr 4798 b
cag ZF 40-41/1 2161 + Montage "v", duv WaA 214; Waffennr 20753g; mit Behälter grün spät WaA 542
cag ZF 40-41/1 3734 + Montage "5", duv WaA 214; Waffennr 24454l; mit Behälter grün spät
cag ZF 40-41/1 5708 + Montage "h", duv WaA 214; Waffennr 49898f
clb ZF 41 56697 ohne Montage "i","4", #598, duv WaA 214; Waffennr 2312 b ; mit Beh grün WaA 14., o. Pinsel u Klarinoltuch
clb ZF 41 60441 + Montage "v", duv WaA 214; Waffennr. 2835k; Absehen geätzt
cxn ZF 52631 K.F. Montage "p" #457, flache Rollen, WaA 214; Waffennr 7780 l mit Beh. grün ohne Nr.
cxn ZF 54828 K.F. Montage ; Waffennr 6606 (neu eingraviert) l
cxn ZF 41 59783 K.F. Aufschrift vertikal, Montage ohne, flache Rollen; Waffennr 4405 (neu eingraviert)
cxn ZF 60445 O Montage ; Waffennr 2921 l
cxn ZF 41 69908 O blau Montage "B","5?" #469, WaA 214; , flache Rollen; Waffennr 9265 (neu eingraviert); mit Behälter grün WaA 14
cxn ZF 41 79172 O blau Montage "i""0" #522, duv WaA 214; flache Rollen, Waffennr 856a; mit Behälter grün WaA 14
cxn ZF 41 79400 O blau Montage "i" #650, WaA 214; Waffennr 4972c (neu eingraviert)
cxn ZF 41 79401 O blau Montage "p" #768, WaA 214; Waffennr 8302o
cxn ZF 41 83351 O blau Montage "" # 577, duv WaA 214; flache Rollen, Waffennr 7477l
cxn ZF 41 85931 O blau Montage "" # 206, duv WaA 214; flache Rollen, Waffennr 8638i
cxn ZF 41 90795 O blau Montage "f","6" #862, duv WaA 214; konische Rollen, Waffennr 4275l
cxn ZF 41 93775 O blau Montage "x","6" #440, duv WaA 214; konische Rollen, Waffennr 6623p
cxn ZF 41 101107 O blau ohne Montage, Übergangsmodell
cxn ZF 41 101229 O blau Montage "v", WaA 214; Waffennr 6184i; mit Behälter grün WaA 14
cxn ZF 41 102807 O blau Montage "i", WaA 214 duv; Waffennr 881i; mit Behälter grün WaA 14
cxn ZF 41 118821 + blau Montage "h" #976, duv WaA 214; Waffennr 5927g, mit nrngl. Beh
cxn ZF 41 120499 + Montage "p","4", #1129, duv WaA 214; Waffennr 3409h
cxn ZF 40*-41 124530 O blau Montage ohne #
cxn ZF 40*-41 M 128727 +
cxn ZF 40*-41 Typ M unmarkiert ??? + Montage "4", duv WaA 214; Waffennr 23750k
cxn ZF 40*-41 128881 + Montage "5", duv WaA 214
cxn ZF 41 M 142205 + D Montage "i", duv WaA 214
cxn ZF 40-41/1 145872 + Montage "v", duv WaA 214; Waffennr 7065e; vorderes Regenschutzrohr fehlt
cxn ZF 40-41/1 145959 + Montage ohne, duv WaA 214; Waffennr 5354d; Regenschutzrohr von cxn M ohne SN erg.
cxn ZF 40-41/1 146353 + Montage "v", WaA 214; Waffennr 735k; ZF ist sandgestrahlt
cxn ZF 41/1 147754 + blau Montage "E", duv WaA 214; Waffennr 2235c; mit Behälter grün WaA14
cxn ZF 40-41/1 148513 + Montage "v", WaA 214; Waffennr 6321c; mit Behälter grün WaA 542
cxn ZF 41/1 SN-Zusatz a a149257 + blau Montage "5", WaA 214; Waffennr 5615d; mit Behälter grün WaA 14
cxn ZF 41/1 155497 D blau Montage "h", duv WaA 214; Waffennr 8518a
cxn ZF 41/1 190947 + blau Montage "E", duv WaA 214; Waffennr 38588e; mit Behälter gelb WaA 542
cxn ZF 41/1 191253 D blau Montage unl., duv WaA 214; Waffennr 26818f, mit Beh. grün spät WaA 542, SN gestempelt
cxn ZF 41 194104 + D blau Montage "5", duv WaA 214; Waffennr 25166c
ddv ZF 41 127x O blau Bofu LAH; Montage unl. "863" duv WaA 214, konische Rollen, Waffennr 6423b
ddv ZF 41 1904 O blau Montage "4" duv WaA 214, flache Rollen, K98 # 1327 i; Absehen geätzt
ddv ZF 41 3901 + blau Montage ohne, konische Rollen, duv WaA 214, Waffennr 3890k; Absehen geätzt; mit Beh. grün WaA 14
ddv ZF 41 6064 + blau Montage "q" # 524, konische Rollen, duv WaA 214, Waffennr 2081a; Absehen geätzt
ddv ZF 41 6521 + blau Montage "p" # 427, flache Rollen, duv, K98 # 8432 l
dow ZF40- 41/1 773 + blau mit nrngl Behälter sand mit Textillasche, Nr. gestempelt; Montage "E", duv WaA 214, Waffennr 6012c
dow ZF40- 41/1 7732 + blau Montage "i", duv WaA 214, Waffennr 28182; mit Beh. grün spät WaA 542, SN gestempelt
dow ZF40- 41/1 8909 + blau Montage "h", duv WaA 214, Waffennr 282
dow ZF 41/1 13868 + Montage "5", duv WaA 214, Absehen geätzt
dym ZF 41/1 2236 + D Montage "h"; mit Behälter grün spät ohne #;
dym ZF 41/1 2320 + D Montage "i"; duv WaA214, Waffennr. 18255 f mit gelbem Behälter # 27538 F
emv ZF 41/1 291 + ohne Montage
eso ZF40- 41/1 1144 + blau Montage "1", duv WaA 214, Absehen geätzt
eso ZF 41/1 2255 + blau Montage "1", duv WaA 214; Waffennr 21804e, Absehen geätzt
fvs ZF 41/1 1198 + blau Montage "i"; duv WaA 214; Waffennr 31175k
fzg ZF 41 1066 + Montage "q", # 721; WaA 214; Waffennr 9834g; Absehen geätzt
fzg ZF 41 3912 + Montage "h" "4", # 560; duv WaA 214; Waffennr 2637
fzg ZF 41 2333 + Montage "q", "1" # 197; duv WaA 214; Waffennr 7319h; Absehen geätzt
fzg ZF 41/1 04419 + Montage "E"; duv WaA 214; Waffennr 22701g
fzg ZF 41/1 05327 + Montage "5"; duv WaA 214; Waffennr 34924k, mit nrngl. Beh
fzg ZF 41/1 05839 + Montage "i"; duv WaA 214; Waffennr 270113, mit nrngl. Beh
gkp ZF 41/1 3835 # 801, duv, K98 # 19395g, mit zusätzlicher schwedischer Nachkriegs Waffennr
jve ZF 41 2375 O Aufschrift vertikal, Montage "p" # 801, duv, Waffennr 2662a, mit Behälter
jve ZF 41 2618 O Aufschrift vertikal, Montage "q","7" # 594, WaA 214 duv , K98 # 3388a; mit nrngl. gr. Beh., Pinsel u. Klarinoltuch ergänzt
jve ZF 41 2959 O Aufschrift vertikal, Montage "i","0" # 521, WaA 214 duv , K98 # 4227a; ohne Rohre
jve ZF 41 3140 O Aufschrift vertikal, Montage "h" # 179, WaA 214 duv , K98 #5033b mit gr.Beh. WaA 14 #2921l mit Pinsel
jve ZF 41/1 10290 + ohne Montage und Regenschutzrohre
kov ZF 41/1 xx0 O Montage "E", duv WaA 214; Waffennr 300xxf, Absehen fehlt
kov ZF 41/1 9308 O Montage "v", duv WaA 214; vorne fehlt Linse
kov ZF 41/1 2575f O Montage "E"
mow ZF 41/1 1023 + blau Montage "E"; duv WaA 214; Waffennr 16402i durchgestr., ersetzt 8165; vord. Regenschutzrohr VNr quer, hinteres erg.

 

[jhv 41]

You have more ZF41's than the German Army had on hand at war's end!

 

[sauer]

database

thank you nigromontanus
very interesting the database zf41
best regards xavier

 

[kentomon]

Thank you

 

[Nigromontanus]

You have more ZF41's than the German Army had on hand at war's end!

not yet, but I do my best

 

[jhv 41]

not yet, but I do my best

Mein Gott, die Bunker der Zielfernrohre!

 

[kentomon]

From my observation, I have recognized a certain common knowledge is a misunderstanding.

ZF40 and ZF41

It is believed that “early scopes are marked ZF40 and after the adoption of ZF41, they are finally reworked into 41 or 41/1”, but this is NOT true.
There are no early scopes (with ZF41 Type1 lens system) marked ZF40.
Of course, I have not seen everything but at least, reworked scopes we see often today have the same lens systems as Type2 or ZF41/1, which mean they are made around 1943.

There are 2 types of ZF40. In their original designation, ZF40* and ZF40.

Picture of ZF40*, before and after reworked.

ZF40* has the same lens system as ZF41 Type2, and is only made by cxn.

Picture of ZF40 (reworked) by dow and cag.

ZF40 is exactly same as ZF41/1, has the same lens system.

The term “have the same lens system” means they are internally identical and have same scope tubes, which also means “reworked” is just changing designation, since it is impossible to remake the tube itself.
See the scope tubes.

From top:
cxn ZF41 Type1, this one was produced around 1941. Note the objective tube is smaller than the others.
Second:
cxn ZF40* reworked into 41, same as ZF41 Type2. Note the ocular end has same lenghth as Type1.
Third:
dow ZF40 reworked into 41/1
Bottom:
dow ZF41/1. Note the 2 dows are exactly same except the markings.

Close-up on dows

 

[kentomon]

The idea of low magnification small scope for rifles were planned much before the Polish campaign. No document is found but perhaps after the infantry commander’s request around 1940, I believe a decision was made to designate the scope for new coming Selbstladegewehr41 as ZF40 and for Karabiner98k as ZF41, though it was not official adoption. And at that time, I also believe there was no difference between ZF40 and ZF41 except their names.

Since Karabiner98k was already on mass-production, ZF41 was soon adopted and on production. The official announcement was 14 July 1941, but the ealiest document on ZF41 known is dated 24 April 1941.


How was Gewehr41? Through 1941 to 1942, (M) and (W) were still on the trial. There seems to be some scopes tested together, which could be ZF41Type1 marked as ZF40, but its existence is not known. The official adoption of Gewehr41 was 21 December 1942 and the following manual for G41(D191/1) is dated 16 February 1943. Although the ZF40 illustrated on the manual is Type1, it is natural to think the scopes were prepared at the same timing, not 1941 but 1942 or 1943.

There is no document found explaining the production of ZF40, but I believe the first order was made in 1942 for ZF40* at cxn, and followed in 1943 for ZF40 at several firms (cxn, cag, dow, eso, dym). But none of the scopes left the factory before the reorder was made to rework them into 41 or 41/1.

The detail of this is still not yet confirmed and several mysteries remain, but this is how I explain the production of ZF40.

 

[Xavier]

dow ZF40 scope

please find a picture of an untouched ZF40 dow scope. I think it is quite rare.
mount is repro of course.
best regards

 

[sauer]

evolution:rear ocular

hello
here are some variant of rear ocular

 

[sauer]

evolution:front ocular

here are some of the production variant ocular

 

[sauer]

evolution of zf41

here are three zf41
zf41 at the center of the image
is a transition model the early and late zf41
look good diameters
best regards

 

[kentomon]

Xavier,
thank you very much for the pictures.
Original ZF40 is indeed quite rare. I have only 1 in my database.

please find a picture of an untouched ZF40 dow scope. I think it is quite rare.
mount is repro of course.
best regards

 

[kentomon]

sauer (Xavier?),
thank you very much for your pictures. You have very nice collection.

I am sorry for using your picture, but I don't see the difference between scope2 and scope3.


Would you please explain more?

here are three zf41
zf41 at the center of the image
is a transition model the early and late zf41
look good diameters
best regards

 

[sauer]

thanck you kentomon
and yet you have not seen it all!
this
good! the drawing is not terrible!
but the difference is seen!

 

[kentomon]

Xavier,
yes, I understood.
I have checked my little collection and found out that all Type1, Type2 and ZF41/1 are same, but only my untouched ZF40* is different, it has more slender ring. Perhaps same as yours.
Interesting is that my reworked ZF40*-41 is normal, same as Type2.
Very interesting. I still have much to learn.
Thank you very much.
Ken

thanck you kentomon
and yet you have not seen it all!
this
good! the drawing is not terrible!
but the difference is seen!

 

[kentomon]

Kov scope mystery

There is something strange around ZF41/1 scopes made by kov, Etablissement Barbier, Bénard et Turenne (B.B.T.). So I am always looking for more information on these scopes.

There are several unique facts on kov made ZF41/1.

A:Circle marking
Kov ZF41/1 is the only ZF41/1 with a “circle” marking. And the circle seem to be different from other circles seen on ZF41, so there might be a doubt on its meaning as a lubricant marking indicating Vakuumfett. Or if it is, that means they are earliest made ZF41/1, perhaps from 1942.


B:Elevation ring locking spring
Normally, the flat spring holding the graduated elevation ring is different between ZF41 Type1 and Type2+ZF41/1.

Kov ZF41/1 is unique and different from both.


C:Left over stock and unfinished parts
The first ZF41(ZF41/1) I acquired was made by kov. I felt something strange at it and soon realized it had no graduation on the elevation ring! Also the ones without markings (“kov” and/or “ZF41/1”, circle always exists), without serial number are often encountered. And a group of parts including unfinished ones originated from kov factory exists.

So when the kov factory was liberated perhaps around August 1944, there were still piles of parts left?

I have another information. I have found a vintage description “This German telescope (ZF41/1) was manufactured by B.B.T. Krauss, 82 Rue Curial, Paris and is believed to be of French design.” It is from ETOUSA report dated 14 Feb. 1945.
There is no additional information to explain more on this belief, so this still have a lot to be confirmed. I have no doubt that cxn, Emil Busch were the first designer of ZF41, but on ZF41/1 they were clearly a follower. So I have been wondering who designed ZF41/1. From the difference of the spring(B), the design of ZF41/1 adopted at other Firms might be a result of mixing the cxn Type2 design and the kov ZF41/1 design. It is very interesting.

Do our friends from France have any information on B.B.T.?

 

[sauer]

cxn

hello ken
if i can help you
i'll watch my serial number
here is another pecliarity of cxn
look at this assembly well
look at this picture
best regards

 

[sauer]

oops!

oops! sorry
"HERE IS ANOTHER PECULIARITY OF CXN"

 

[mrfarb]

I need to upload pics, but my ZF41 is cxn with blue +, serial is 139561