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ZF41 Scope Mount Thread

mdarnell19

mdarnell19

Beavis Moderator
Staff member
I have always wanted to know if there was a method to determine what manufacturer that any given ZF41 mount was numbered by (when found separated from it's matching rifle). So in an attempt to possibly figure that out I have created these sheets. Perhaps by comparing we can come up with something. It would be very helpful if those with more experience and examples could share pictures of mounts to either confirm or disprove my theories. So please post pictures of what you have and perhaps we can get to the bottom of this.

As you will see in these sheets I have seen some patterns emerge but my sample size is rather small. So we shall if these hold true.

Berlin Lubeck Maschinenfabrik Mounts: 4 digit serial numbers, top of the scope rings are not numbered, and an assembly number is found on the sides of the rings. Also, mounts do not have the duv marking but will have e/214. However, this could merely be an early feature.

BLM Zf41 Numbering.jpg

Mauser Borsigwalde Mounts: 4 digits serial numbers, top of the rings are numbered with last two digits of rifle serial number. Assembly number on the side of the rings is found on early mounts (flat rollers) but later is dropped. Mounts have duv and e/214. It would appear that the font of MB mounts are slightly larger then MO.

MB Zf41 Numbering.jpg

Mauser Oberndorf Mounts: 4 and 5 digits serial numbers, top of the rings are numbered with last two digits of rifle serial number and no assembly number on the side of the rings. Mounts have duv and e/214. It would appear that the font of MO mounts are slightly smaller then MB.

MO Zf41 Numbering.jpg

Below is a side by side comparison of known original mount's numbers to see if there is any difference in fonts.

Zf41 Numbering Comparison.jpg

Please post any information or pictures of original mounts, especially if you have the matching rifle. As you can see I am missing some numbers. We can update this post as we go. Thanks in advance for your help.

Great website for ZF41s
http://zielfernrohr.b.la9.jp/index.htm​
 
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Very interesting and great effort! Thank you very much for fixing this. So these numbers are from the matching set. I will check my database, but unfortunately I have no matching data.
 
Ken, yes these are from matching rifles and mounts with 5 digits. So they are the correct fonts. I would like to see more examples to confirm this. The biggest thing I found was the serial number placed on top and the assembly number on the side of the rings. If this is true then it is a easy way to determine if a piece is from BLM.
 
Zf41

I have several scopes, mounts, and cans. I have an early scope that matches can. Has rifle serial on mount, two digits of rifle serial electro pencil on top caps of rings, and assembler number on on end of rings. So, I don’t see how that fits any of the above scenarios. Maybe I am reading your stuff wrong. I have posted that scope on here already a few years ago. I could post my other scopes if there was any interest in the future.
 
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Brian, yes please post what photos you have, they would certainly help. Thanks

This is just a start. I plan to create similar threads looking at other scope/mount types.
 
Brian, thanks. That is a good one to look at. I had one picture of this scope and thought it was an MB mount. It definitely changes my theory.

So the question is, is this scope mount from BLM or MB? If BLM, then it shows that they did number the top. If from MB then they did have assembly numbers at least some of the time. I tend to think that is what this is, an early MB mount. Because I have Stan’s all matching ar42 and Craig’s all matching ar43 rifle. Neither scope mounts have assembly numbers.
 
Zf41

This probably is wrong. It was mentioned to me by another collector that AR coded ZF41 rifles had duv code mark below the WaA on scope mounts and Mauser had the duv mark above the WaA on scope mounts. Seems odd the Germans would go to this effort to differentiate. I never had access to matching ZF41 rifles to test this theory. I was always skeptical about this.

The additional serials and assembler numbers were early traits in my opinion. I have not put a ton of work into this and have been guessing so far. Not really into ZF41 stuff.
 
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Matt- this is an interesting thread. The serial numbering font/style differences are very apparent when you see them side by side. Good idea!
 
The duv location is not a great indicator. Most I see are duv on top and e/214 on bottom. Sometimes these are switched but nothing consistent. However, I have seen on early flat rollers that there is no duv mark. Now I am starting to wonder...... has any one ever seen a flat roller Borsigwalde rifle? If so please share.

As for the rifle serial number on top, that is consistent on Oberndorf and Borsigwalde rifles. But it does seem that the assembly number on the side is an early feature. Brian, your scope mount looks to be early with a very early Type I scope.
 
Bigdibbs88 said:
Matt- this is an interesting thread. The serial numbering font/style differences are very apparent when you see them side by side. Good idea!
Click to expand...

Thanks. If there is any particular difference you see then post it and we will see if the trend continues. I notice a small difference in the 7's. Oberndorf seem to be engraved deeper and smaller.
 
For me generally speaking the BLM font is to a lesser extent reminiscent of their gun numbering, rounded and sweeping, almost stylized. The borsigwalde font has a very light pantograph look, the easiest to spot. MO is again heavy like the BLM font but again like their rifles, a more “proper” font and less stylized
 
Ar 41 flatt roller

Please find pictures of an ar41 zf41 flatt roller.
http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?3429-K98-AR41-ZF41-flatt-rail&highlight=Zf41+flatt+roller




mdarnell19 said:
The duv location is not a great indicator. Most I see are duv on top and e/214 on bottom. Sometimes these are switched but nothing consistent. However, I have seen on early flat rollers that there is no duv mark. Now I am starting to wonder...... has any one ever seen a flat roller Borsigwalde rifle? If so please share.

As for the rifle serial number on top, that is consistent on Oberndorf and Borsigwalde rifles. But it does seem that the assembly number on the side is an early feature. Brian, your scope mount looks to be early with a very early Type I scope.
Click to expand...
 
Not sure if I understood all correct. You are only interested in rifles with matching number mounts, or what exactly would you need for doing research?
 
Xavier, thank you for those links. They help tremendously. It shows that 1, yes Borsigwalde did assemble flat roller Zf41s, and 2. likely the mounts you posted are also Borsigwalde based on the font. If they are, then early MB mounts do have the assembly numbers. But I still think eventually they dropped this. So perhaps the assembly numbers on the side of the mount are a flat roller feature?

Goerg, no we don't only need matching rifles. They certainly help the most. We need people to post good clear pictures of numbered mounts so we can see if a pattern develops.

At the very least we can pin down most, if not all, of the letter blocks found on 5 digit Oberndorf rifles.

Thanks everybody, keep the info coming.
 
Current Thread

Would be nice to include a scope/mount serial number data base for possible matching up.
I will submit all the rigs I have.
 
I for one am glad to see this thread pop up as I had wondered if there were any trends or differences in the mounts themselves. I had figured a 5 digit serial would denote Oberndorf (and 6 digit serial would've been from a KKW?) but beyond that, I had no clue.

I also think a zf41 database would be great!
 
Current thread

Matt go ahead and start a sticky on ZF41 scope mounts including a database of existing numbered mounts and optional owner.
 
ZF41 2644e

Here is a nice numbered ZF41 Scope. Perfect Optics. Top caps of rings are numbered. No assembler number on the ends. I hope this helps.
 

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