Hello all, I have been a member for a while but have not posted much but have read endless nights on this wonderful forum. I have a few items that I will be posting for discussion and opinions. first is this zf41 can I picked up may years ago and have always assumed to be original. I would be interested in hearing opinions as this is not s/n marked. were all cans marked or were late war cans not marked?
zf41 can for discussion
- Thread starter Darell
- Start date
Hercules
Senior Member
Looks original to me. Late war mounts and cans were not numbered. Thanks for posting.
Nigromontanus
Senior Member
I agree, original.
mauser99
Senior Member
I tend to disagree. What I see when collecting optics is a change was made to All optics to that matter a color change from grey/green to ordinance tan. This seemed to take place circa late 43 or early 44 as all period optics show this change. I wouldn't expect this can to be any different and the color is spot on to other optics painted in the period. But, the counter argument might be are all period LSR cans green ? And they would have been made during the same period and made by the same can maker ? So where the cans painted elsewhere ? Possibly ? Endless discussion could be made.
Nigromontanus
Senior Member
The tan color is period. It is not oversprayed, because that would mean it has an original color underneath, which is not the case with tan cans. It is just that production was halted due to unsuccessfulness of the scope and this happened in 1943 after the switch to tan color with the cans. The green cans were all issued with scopes and numbered to the guns. When these ran out, yellow ones were used and also numbered. But the numbered yellow ones are rather rare.
There exist Luftwaffe-blue overpainted ones, which are utmost rare, which was done deliberately without special need, since the green color was ok when doing so. These were IMO for ZF41 issued with FJ or LW-Felddivisions or HG-Division. The color appears to be rather field applied. I have 2 of them, one early and a late originally green one.
There exist Luftwaffe-blue overpainted ones, which are utmost rare, which was done deliberately without special need, since the green color was ok when doing so. These were IMO for ZF41 issued with FJ or LW-Felddivisions or HG-Division. The color appears to be rather field applied. I have 2 of them, one early and a late originally green one.
Tan cans
Appreciate the feedback on the paint but I remain skeptical on all of these being correct.
IMO, there should be appropriate aging on these and not look like the paint was applied last week.
Will consider these on a case by case basis.
Appreciate the feedback on the paint but I remain skeptical on all of these being correct.
IMO, there should be appropriate aging on these and not look like the paint was applied last week.
Will consider these on a case by case basis.
mauser99
Senior Member
I have also handled many 6x30 dienstglas that look like they were painted last week and were clearly not. If you pass over stuff because it looks too new you will clearly miss out. DDX aka voightlander made tan 6x30 in this same color as these cans. These cans were un-issued and stored very well in most cases. Not different than finding a k98 that was barely handled.
Back in the early 1970s, several hundreds of unissued ZF41 with cans were found in France. All in brand new condition. They were sold for 19.90 German Marks (=> less than $10) by FWW. Have to look up some old Frankonia catalogs and DWJ for more details.
How they painted/sprayed the cans without leaving marks of paint on the belt loop is a mystery to me anyway.
The rivets holding the belt loop are painted/sprayed the same way as the container. Under the belt loop, close to the retainer, there is no paint.
From my point of view, the belt loop was attached to the can when the can was sprayed.
Any other/better ideas?
Thanks
How they painted/sprayed the cans without leaving marks of paint on the belt loop is a mystery to me anyway.
The rivets holding the belt loop are painted/sprayed the same way as the container. Under the belt loop, close to the retainer, there is no paint.
From my point of view, the belt loop was attached to the can when the can was sprayed.
Any other/better ideas?
Thanks
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kentomon
Senior Member
Very interesting discussion!
I have been wondering about those “late war” ordnance tan cans for a long time. From my observation, they are all well made, not like those poor repros, but compared with the ordinary green types, they are generally roughly constructed and painted. The paint is applied after the construction, so there is sometimes some on the inside felt. This is never seen on green cans. I have a very late green can for comparison. (BTW, do you know there is clear external difference between early and late green cans? Not about very early internal hinges.) They are very similar, but it is not only the color that is different. Hard to think they came from the same factory in a short period.
And I have seen a 1945 dated picture of a sniper company equipped with tan 6x30 dienstglas and green ZF41 cans on their belt. But have not seen period picture of tan ZF41 can yet. So I am now a bit skeptical on these tan cans.
I am very interested in those cans “found” in France. Maybe there was kov ZF41/1 scopes (parts) together?
I have been wondering about those “late war” ordnance tan cans for a long time. From my observation, they are all well made, not like those poor repros, but compared with the ordinary green types, they are generally roughly constructed and painted. The paint is applied after the construction, so there is sometimes some on the inside felt. This is never seen on green cans. I have a very late green can for comparison. (BTW, do you know there is clear external difference between early and late green cans? Not about very early internal hinges.) They are very similar, but it is not only the color that is different. Hard to think they came from the same factory in a short period.
And I have seen a 1945 dated picture of a sniper company equipped with tan 6x30 dienstglas and green ZF41 cans on their belt. But have not seen period picture of tan ZF41 can yet. So I am now a bit skeptical on these tan cans.
I am very interested in those cans “found” in France. Maybe there was kov ZF41/1 scopes (parts) together?
As far as I remember only cxn scopes were found.
sauer
Senior Member
hi ken
here a cans of color transition
originally it was green and it was painted sand color
you will notice small green patches in some pictures
i also put a picture of two colored send cans for esay comparison
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kentomon
Senior Member
Very interesting. I have to learn more. Thank you!
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mauser99
Senior Member
When the change in color was mandated not all manufactures got the memo apparently. Some changed some didn't. Maybe there was a shortage of paint ? Some weren't told ? Im sure we will never know. What is known by looking at period examples is the one's who did get the memo and who had the tan paint on hand went through the trouble of re-painting what was already on hand or in production. DDX voightlander is one of them. They made huge quantities of 6x30 dienstglas and were the primary manufacture of this gear. Time lines are very hard to nail down as this stuff isn't dated. But, I have studied and have all the variants available. Here is a set circa late 43-early 44. Aul. bodied rough black paint then overpainted ord. tan. This was clearly factory done and not field painted. I have seen a dozen examples like this. Same with the repainted green to tan cases. The order came down and the color was changed. The last of the black ddx show up in the high 290,xxx K range.
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Nigromontanus
Senior Member
I think the same happened to the overpainted ZF41 can. It is the second one I see of this type. Both have a textile opener and not a D-Ring. I also have a tan sprayed can with textile opener which is rarer to the last version with D-ring.
kentomon
Senior Member
I have checked my cans and realized that the painting method of the green cans are the same as the tan cans. Probably they are sprayed after the can assembly, with the web loop masked with something. The tan paint is thicker than the green, and the coloring work together with the can construction is done rough. So those are all because they are made late war. Now, I agree they are originals.
