Ww2 bring back Mauser
- Thread starter BusinessEd
- Start date
Mauserguy85
Well-known member
Phographic evidence is paramount and can’t be disputed. In this case we have a quite of few photos of surrendered German arms in piles and/or stacked up with bolts. However this does not prove that bolts were not separated sometime after the photos being taken. One must keep in mind that for safety reasons, removing the bolt assembly on a bolt action is the 100% way to keep that rifle from discharging if any cartridges remain inside. I suspect from the stories that I have heard that most likely after these piles of arms were made, some soldiers were assigned to “check for safety” and stack up these rifles in designated areas. During those duties, undoubtedly some of people in charge ordered rifles and their bolts seperated, while some other guys in charge of securing these weapons may have been okay with just ordering bolt cycle and chamber check be done….
Cyrano4747
Well-known member
I've always assumed a fair number just got mixed up in use. G/K43s are a good counterpoint to the K98ks as they have both a bolt and a carrier. If the 98ks were having the bolts removed on turn-in it stands to reason the G/Ks would too, but there are plenty of bringback examples of those out there with either carrier or bolt mismatches, but not both (so mismatched carrier holding a bolt numbered to the gun, for example).
Plus, you can find photos like this. Somehow I doubt these guys were fretting too much over making sure they had the right bolt:
That said, I think the answer is "all of the above." Some guns were mismatched in service. Some had the bolts mixed up on surrender. Some went home in a duffel bag and the ship's arms master confiscated all bolts to make sure no one did anything idiotic undeway. Some got mixed up after the war for whatever reason. There really isn't a one size fits all answer to this, just a number of different possibilities.
Plus, you can find photos like this. Somehow I doubt these guys were fretting too much over making sure they had the right bolt:
That said, I think the answer is "all of the above." Some guns were mismatched in service. Some had the bolts mixed up on surrender. Some went home in a duffel bag and the ship's arms master confiscated all bolts to make sure no one did anything idiotic undeway. Some got mixed up after the war for whatever reason. There really isn't a one size fits all answer to this, just a number of different possibilities.
BusinessEd
Member
Thank you very much for your input. My grandfather got this from his brother-in-law, who served in France and Germany in 44 and 45. I know for a fact this is a bring back.
PatickD
Member
The Germans were apparently responsible for all their equipment. I don’t really have any doubts about that carrying over to their rifles too.
I would imagine they would get the sh*t chewed out of them. For mixing an important part of their rifles. The bolt especially.
Even with parts interchangeably. Headspace’s between bolts, is not guaranteed..
Stephan98k
aka 8x57IS
This is a very good and important comment, I like every sentence.
"Das Gewehr ist die Braut des Soldaten - The rifle is the soldier's bride"
The above is not just a saying, it was a guiding principle and it was hammered into the heads of every soldier, I could tell many stories about it. I know it from my grandfather, father and from my own time in service.
I have many old documents and the condition of the weapons (as example K98k) was checked regularly, including that the parts of the weapons were not mixed up, and that the numbers are matching. Not only by the respective leaders of the military unit, but also by higher authorities. Not only in peacetime, but also during the war, investigations were regularly carried out because swapped weapon parts. In particular K98k bayonets and their scabbards were swapped very often. In these cases, wanted notices were published so that the swapped bayonets could be swapped back. In any case, a bayonet with the number "8575e" had to be returned to the matching scabbard with the number "8575e" and the weapons were returned to their military unit.
Even in 1944 weapons were strictly checked. A report names the units of a regiment that were noticed positively or negatively during the weapons inspection. The soldiers responsible with K98k in bad condition were to be punished. The Eastern Front in 1944 was already punishment enough - most soldiers wanted to avoid further unnecessary punishments. Of course, it still happened, but for the reasons mentioned above, soldiers generally did not handle their weapons carelessly.
Cololab
Senior Member
Not really germaine to the mismatch bolt theories, but a family friend who was with an anti-aircraft unit in the ETO told the story of running over lines of rifles with their M16 quad .50 halftracks; bent barrels and broken stocks being one field expedient manner of rendering things useless.
luftpirate
Well-known member
I don't think there was impetus to destroy as many weapons ASAP in this situation especially with the possibility of having to refit the Wehrmacht if the Soviets continued to press Westward. See the continued production at captured factories and also the Russians stockpiling so many captured weapons themselves.
Stephan98k
aka 8x57IS
Because of the comments from both of you, I had to think of part of my own family history, I think it fits the topic well.
My home is in northern Germany and my grandmother had to leave her previous emergency accommodation at the beginning of April 1945 due to severe bomb damage, she was quartered in another city beside the Elbe River. The British and Scots decided to cross the Elbe at this point. On April 29, 1945 was D-Day and after a long artillery fire on the city and the surrounding area, the British commandos attacked.
My grandmother had to flee north under fire, she wanted to reach the house about 15 kilometers away where her sister lived. She was 8 months pregnant and when she had made it a little over halfway, she saw a German unit. An officer took pity on her and drove her in a Kübelwagen to her sister's country house. The British troops expanded very fast their bridgehead and fought their way north. The German troops set up a makeshift defense line and surrendered after a short but fierce firefight on her sister's property. The approximately 100 German soldiers were disarmed, the K98k were lined up and British military vehicles ran over them several times to destroy them. The weapons, bayonets and helmets were buried at this location. The soldiers were then taken prisoner.
I grew up with my grandparents and my grandmother had her vegetable garden in this place. As a kid, I often helped her in the garden, for example digging to plant vegetables. She was happy that I was helping her, but she sometimes complained that I shouldn't dig so deep. She just wanted to avoid the discussion with me. As a child, I didn't want to understand that I wasn't allowed to keep the machine gun ammunition etc. The ammunition was always taken away from me, I was only allowed to keep a bayonet.
I now live in a small village about 5 kilometers from my grandmother's vegetable garden. Where our house stands and where I am now writing this message was the command post of a German division. One regiment was south of our house and the second regiment was north. This division was originally supposed to stop British paratroopers, but since they were not deployed, they launched a pincer attack on the British units on April 30, 1945, who were supposed to expand their bridgehead to the north. Both sides suffered heavy losses and when this division surrendered just a few days later, these German soldiers were treated differently. This division marched with its leaders and with its full armament and under the supervision of the British soldiers to a prison camp and was only later disarmed.
Same area and identical time period, yet an absolute contrast - it always depends on the situation.
Thanks for sharing your family history. Puts a lot of this hobby and why things are the way they are into perspective.
Nobody
Well-known member
Really interesting post/Family History, @Stephan98k.
heavy_mech
RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual
So on the bolt theme, I've experienced in the US Army that at times and under certain commands, all bolts were removed, placed into an NSN approved sleeve and the bolts and rifles traveled separately. Insane overkill IMHO. I also traveled halfway around the world where we literally carried our complete weapons, including machine guns onto the charter plane. Just depends on the command and their 'risk tolerance'
BusinessEd
Member
Thank you for asking. Just a value? I know with a not matching numbers it’s definitely not fetching over 2K, do you think 1000 to 1200 would be a good estimate?