Why Call out Turds?

Hambone

Hambone

Community Organizer
Staff member
Because it's fun, and more importantly, because we want the humpers, shysters, gun carnies, shills, and assorted scumbags to know that doing that in K98k collecting entails more risk and less return. Go hump, carnival bark, and shill something else. We can't stop these people completely, but can certainly make our neighborhood more dangerous and less profitable to try to steal from and exploit.

I see people post from time to time, "K98k collecting is filled with fakes!" These are the words of the willfully ignorant, people too lazy to even avail themselves of the free resources and assistance we provide here; too lazy to simply make an internet search; too lazy and cheap to buy the The Books. They are the words of a person bitching about the beach because of the burns they get, yet they don't have enough sense to avail themselves of hats, sunscreen, or a beach umbrella.

I've been collecting K98ks since I was 13, about 1980 when I bought my first one, a mismatched big block bnz 44 and 100 rds of MG.34 belted ammunition for $185, money I saved cutting yards. Collecting has never been better. There has never been more information, free. There are guys here that know more than I do who have been collecting 5-10 years to my 40. Are K98ks more expensive now? Sure. But do you want to collect things which are free or cheap? While people don't fake free or cheap things (like dirt clods, cigarette butts, dryer lint, etc.) the lack of fakery means one is accumulating worthless things because every collectible of any kind with value is faked. Our collective goal, which has been realized to a significant extent, is to move those fakers away from K98k collecting. I have seen more than a few humpers and gun carnies publicly complain about us and even vow no more 98ks in frustration ;) :happy0180:
 
Hambone said:
Because it's fun,

I have seen more than a few humpers and gun carnies publicly complain about us and even vow no more 98ks in frustration ;) :happy0180:
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I agree. Not only fun but challenging and educational looking for fakes. I also noticed a few notorious fakers have either given up or moved on to other guns over the last year or so. Hopefully that trend continues. I'm sure they'll never be eliminated and it make come down to the only ones left are really good and focus on the high dollar/highly desirable pieces.
 
Interesting, but here are some other considerations...
  • Perhaps the collective IQ has been elevated by a more natural and organic growth of information afforded by the whole of the internet, accurate books, and vigilant data collectors. This forum may be the mouthpiece, but this is one aspect of that growth. In addition, as time passes more tech-savvy join the collecting community. The IQ needle is moving for sure, but there are several factors.
  • As collective IQ moves north, there are less folks who can be fooled
  • Has the value of 98s outpaced inflation? If it has, then the risk/reward perhaps favors doing more research, buying less on impulse, calling a life-line.... or even changes who will build a collection.
  • Perhaps the major humpers have died, or "raw material" is less available. Fewer humpers, less raw material, and fewer sheeple may greatly reduce the numbers of "new" fakes. Maybe a tipping point has been reached
  • Given the garbage that still sells for a high price I still believe this forum reaches a minority of the folks who get involved with 98s
 
Bob in OHIO said:
Interesting, but here are some other considerations...
  • Perhaps the collective IQ has been elevated by a more natural and organic growth of information afforded by the whole of the internet, accurate books, and vigilant data collectors. This forum may be the mouthpiece, but this is one aspect of that growth. In addition, as time passes more tech-savvy join the collecting community. The IQ needle is moving for sure, but there are several factors.
  • As collective IQ moves north, there are less folks who can be fooled
  • Has the value of 98s outpaced inflation? If it has, then the risk/reward perhaps favors doing more research, buying less on impulse, calling a life-line.... or even changes who will build a collection.
  • Perhaps the major humpers have died, or "raw material" is less available. Fewer humpers, less raw material, and fewer sheeple may greatly reduce the numbers of "new" fakes. Maybe a tipping point has been reached
  • Given the garbage that still sells for a high price I still believe this forum reaches a minority of the folks who get involved with 98s
Click to expand...

My observations are those of someone actively involved in this hobby from 1980 to present. You are merely rephrasing what I posted. The "collective IQ increase" you reference was brought about by the people of this site, notably Bruce and Mike, who wrote The Books and founded this site, along with the "collective IQ" of the primary longtime members here who also collaborated on The Book. It is an international movement. What other group of people other than those here are the "collective IQ" of the hobby? What other sources of solid, vetted, information is available other than the collective membership here? The "collective IQ moves north" as a result of what site?

As for the "garbage that still sells for a high price" if you mean auctions, such as Gunbonker, my firm belief is that more than half of that is due to the fraud known as "shill bidding". It harms the hobby because it fosters the belief that you have, that there is far more ignorance, far less due diligence, and far fewer people who look to us as a resource. Shill bidding creates unreasonable and unrealistic pricing data which frustrates transactions and frustrates the entry of new collectors. I've bought exceptional pieces at auction, sold by honest sellers without shills, for excellent prices without a single bidder.

In short, again, I ask where the "collective IQ" has been raised other than here and by the people here? Gunboards? Facebook? I think we can well be proud collectively here and take credit for that. It's not boast, it's fact. As far as your view that only a "minority" reference this site, well, as I stated, if that is true then those who don't reference it (it's not tough to find) cannot complain of being burned or about fakery, now can they? The correct answer and the free help is here. Where else is it available?
Cheers,
HB
 
Current Thread

First I hope that all of our members and their families are weathering this storm. My best to all of you.
The process of humping goes back decades, and with respect to this hobby alone, likely started with snipers.
At the time there was ample material (bases, scopes,etc.) and reasonable demand for product.

As time went on and the price of K98ks increased to the "tipping point" for lack of a better term, opportunism arose.
Sure it was present early but since rifles were basically inexpensive fakery was random. In my early years, the prevalent
practices were restocking and re-welding scope mounting holes.

Jump ahead 20-30 year and different landscape. I can't tell you how many novice collectors had said the proverbial magic
phrase "collecting K98ks is like walking into a minefield."

While this site was not established as a platform for vetting and identifying fake or humped rifles, certainly a side effect has
been just this and as it should be.

Two main points here:

1. The presentation of legitimate examples is critical
2. Forum transparency allowing for accurate comparison between "real and memorex"


To date we have been on point and hopefully with our dedicated staff and member base, will continue to be so.

Stay well to all!
B.
 
Yep. The “collective IQ” as it were (and as it be) has increased dramatically in the last 20 years. With that, and calling out turds, a natural adjunct to that, has in my opinion, resulted in relatively fewer humpers and humpjobs now than in the past. I believe this true in spite of the precipitous increases in the popularity of the hobby and resultant price increases. We can only help those who want to be helped. If you’re whinging about the beach because you don’t take the time to learn about and use sunscreen or a hat, that’s on you, not the beach. Point is, in order to identify turds and call them out, there has to be the IQ to spot them and the discussion of outing turds in part increases the "collective IQ" does it not?
 
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Thank you Bruce I hope you and your family are staying safe and keeping well yourself my friend.

Anyway like Bruce and Craig have stated humping rifles goes back decades, when a faker could make money he will do it. Over the year's they have gotten better but they are never 100% perfect to the knowledgeable collector. But I want new collectors here to know, I'm a young collector. I'm not a guy that's in my golden years yet lol. I hit the big 30 this year. But I want those collectors to know. I started off studying rifles before I ever bought one. Main reason I became a member here back in 2014 and it does shock me how much I have learned over the years.

But it seems to be the same talk I hear from newer collectors regardless if they have deep pockets or not so deep pockets.

"I want a sniper rifle."
"I really want an SS rifle."
"I want a pretty rifle that is 100% all matching."
"I want a really early rifle."
"I want an 100% all matching rifle now!"

Not trying to insult anyone but it seems like this is a common trend I have seen over the years. Alot of folks don't have the patience to learn or wait for a nice rifle. And learning is the number one thing. Why spend money on the books sell me your nice rifle now! Before I ever bought my first all matching K98k I spent well over a year studying before I ever bought one. And that's only one important part of this hobby. Making good friends and good contacts over the years opens up the door even more. Some of these guys you may never buy a single rifle off them, but their friendship and knowledge is more important and valuable then a few rifles.

When I found my all matching 1939 337 back in 2018 it was my buddy Mike Stevens who called me after I sent him pictures of it. He told me move your a$$ and buy that rifle! :biggrin1:
 
... as I have quietly walked shows and been at live auctions, and listened to prospective buyers or window shoppers examine examples (versus sellers barking about their wares) I find that their K98 IQ generally seems mediocre. I finally get it .... that the body of understanding needed, IS in fact, pretty voluminous with a dash of nuance. Being a member or using this forum as a resource is certainly advised and elevates the chances, but offers no guarantee of success. Some situations are better than others. A gun on GB can be vetted by calling a lifeline or digging into the resources, but a gun show or a live auction affords little time to decide.

I specifically remember a svwMB with a wet stock at OGCA that I was sad to see.... and how another looker had no clue. Another buyer of German rifles at a live auction recently bought several and none were right. Later, when I spoke with him, he was a dealer who was going to list them all, and "on balance would make money" (what an awful business model, IMO). I only saw the 33/40 he bought lose money on GB, and no idea on the others. I wasn't stalking his purchases, but rather happened on to the 33/40.

Knowing and learning this "stuff" is not that easy, and certainly the mods here do an excellent job in helping to move our collective IQ needle to the right.
 
Why call out turds?

Please don’t ever stop!
Calling out fakery is critical to the survival of the hobby, this forum seems to be one of the few that practice it honestly.
Thanks!
 
Bob in OHIO said:
.Knowing and learning this "stuff" is not that easy, and certainly the mods here do an excellent job in helping to move our collective IQ needle to the right.
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This is true. However as pointed out earlier there are many way to limit your burn or potential for burn. Some cursory research would have limited many of those burns IMHO.
 
Muncher 1953 said:
Please don’t ever stop!
Calling out fakery is critical to the survival of the hobby, this forum seems to be one of the few that practice it honestly.
Thanks!
Click to expand...

Yes thanks. Not trying to hype or play fanboy but Dave's site also is a good resource. Like in many cases you can literally copy the Gunbonker akshun number and do a search and it will take you right to a discussion of the veracity of that item. If you got hoodwinked for high dollar and didn't do that due diligence then you are at fault. Not the hobby or K98s.
 
Hambone said:
But do you want to collect things which are free or cheap? While people don't fake free or cheap things (like dirt clods, cigarette butts, dryer lint, etc.)
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But my dryer lint is part of a large 40+ year old collection. :thumbsup:
 
Per the OP and following poster

I routinely tell this to new comers every other day here, so much so, I have expected the MODS to spank me ( verbally) or called out by my fellow members as being over the top. ( for whom I have little verbal contact with)

I am far from a K-98 or G/K-43 expert, in fact not one at all. but I have been collecting military firearms since 1976, my area of interest is east german firearms since 1990/1991

my approach is simple, learn as much as possible, read as much as possible. This what I took away from 4 years for college ( I paid my own way, starting at 22yrs old) research, patience, in the field learning hands on ( in our hobby funshows, exhibits and now the internet, where the bloody information is free).

I routinely hear " its my rifle" crap, yep its yours. When you get bored with that now used collectible, I am going to offer you peanuts, because I will see the range table scratches on grandpa's bring home luger, you had to shoot or I will smell the cold blue you added to fool me, or the polished stocked to make it pretty.
the biggest sin shooting the bloody thing, like I will never know. We have a few guys here that shoot there civil war rifles and collectibles. I will never join in conversation with you and you know who you are.

yep your rifle is now worth half the collectible value, as this will insult Mr. "it my rifle"
 
Interesting thread...

I'm 49, and have been collecting US (primarily) ang German WW2 weapons since 1994 or so. I'm also a car guy and have dabbled in and collected muscle cars (mostly solid lifter SHP GM..Z/28's, L78/89's, LS6. COPO, etc.) longer however. I've been fortunate to have owned some very cool cars (and guns) including a "pilot" LS6 Chevelle (owned it twice actually), a Yenko, a bunch of Z's and L78's, and a few cool Corvettes. A lot of how I "collect" guns is a result of my car collecting.

Research first...buy second
Study known examples
Understand manufacturing principles...LIFO, FIFO, FILO, LILO
Don't assume something that isn't expected...is wrong
Find a mentor

The fakes and fakers will always be there....you guys think gun collecting is bad...play around with 6 figure cars...re-stamped parts, re-stamped drivetrains, fake docs, rebodies, outright fake claims (was booted off a well known GM "supercar" website in 2006 for showing the site owner's 1968 Camaro funnycar wasn't the well known drag racers car he was claiming it was...$300k car to $35k overnight..). Anytime you have something collectible you will have fakers..

The key to maintaining the hobby is to call out the fake stuff, be proactive with it...item for sale or not, educate people through constructive post, be seen as "friendly" to newbies...mentor people, and don't "protect" legacy people

Just my opinion
 
ls6man said:
The key to maintaining the hobby is to call out the fake stuff, be proactive with it...item for sale or not, educate people through constructive post, be seen as "friendly" to newbies...mentor people, and don't "protect" legacy people
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This........
 
Current thread

Not to repeat ls6man and Hams post but point on!

One key point in the previous post "dont protect legacy people."
I guess that last point was really brought home with the whole "champagne rune" episode on multiple forums.
I for one would expect to be called out if I posted a gomer!


B.
 
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