In the book “Mauser Military Rifles of the World” (fifth edition), Robert Ball says the 71/84 saw service with the Volkssturm in WW2 (linked image, middle of the page to right), I have gone to the bibliography part of the book and found two sources that mention the Volkssturm, I have looked thoroughly through both and can’t find any info regarding this rifle and it’s use, my guess is that’s it’s in one of the many other sources that aren’t about the Volkssturm, but does anyone have any information on where this information came from? You can find the book on internet archive if that’s any help.
Was the Mauser 71/84 Rifle used by the Volkssturm?
- Thread starter Oskar
- Start date
In the book “Mauser Military Rifles of the World” (fifth edition), Robert Ball says the 71/84 saw service with the Volkssturm in WW2 (linked image, middle of the page to right), I have gone to the bibliography part of the book and found two sources that mention the Volkssturm, I have looked thoroughly through both and can’t find any info regarding this rifle and it’s use, my guess is that’s it’s in one of the many other sources that aren’t about the Volkssturm, but does anyone have any information on where this information came from? You can find the book on internet archive if that’s any help.
Cyrano4747
Well-known member
IIRC there's one oddball reference to Volkssturm use coming out of some German officer's memoirs who was in the Netherlands or something like that, although I might be mistaken and it might have been 3rd line troops. Maybe someone here remembers the source because I'm not near my notes right now. Either way, I do recall it's not considered a very solid source.
Ball has a ton of really big issues, especially in the history. It's not a text I would trust for specifics beyond how to identify models. It's not all bad info, but there is enough stuff scattered around that you have to mistrust the whole. As you've noticed he's also terrible about citation and will frequently say things that aren't backed up in his bibliography.
edit: even the stuff he does have a citation for can be problematic, as he uses a lot of sources uncritically and repeats bad info in other books. IIRC Gotz in particular is responsible for a lot of errors in Ball.
Ball has a ton of really big issues, especially in the history. It's not a text I would trust for specifics beyond how to identify models. It's not all bad info, but there is enough stuff scattered around that you have to mistrust the whole. As you've noticed he's also terrible about citation and will frequently say things that aren't backed up in his bibliography.
edit: even the stuff he does have a citation for can be problematic, as he uses a lot of sources uncritically and repeats bad info in other books. IIRC Gotz in particular is responsible for a lot of errors in Ball.
Cyrano4747
Well-known member
To my mind there are a few other things that militate against the 71/84 as a Volkssturm weapon. The most important is simply the logistical challenge of employing them. The ammo wasn't being made in the amounts you would need for even a small military deployment, and the arm wasn't in common use. The fact that it couldn't take modern ammo would also be a pain in in the butt. If someone found, for example, a crate of old Gew88s then you could see them being pressed into service because you could likely draw ammo from current military stocks. They also weren't being used by anyone. Even police had moved on from the design a long time ago. The other big thing is the lack of any photographic evidence. We've got plenty of pictures of the Volkssturm using all manner of arms. Ample evidence of carcanos and m95's, for example. But nothing showing the really obsolete black powder stuff.
I'm not going to say it is impossible that a couple found their way into use. It was a chaotic situation at the end of the war and you've got everything from the officially organized Volkssturm units all the way down through the local small party flunkies grabbing a few HJ kids and whatever was on hand to serve as human speed bumps. I could see some grandpa showing up to the muster with an old hunting rifle and his own ammo, or maybe someone raiding a forgotten forestry office and grabbing some stuff that hadn't been touched in 30 years. But certainly not to an extent where it would be notable as the last military use of the weapon.
I'm not going to say it is impossible that a couple found their way into use. It was a chaotic situation at the end of the war and you've got everything from the officially organized Volkssturm units all the way down through the local small party flunkies grabbing a few HJ kids and whatever was on hand to serve as human speed bumps. I could see some grandpa showing up to the muster with an old hunting rifle and his own ammo, or maybe someone raiding a forgotten forestry office and grabbing some stuff that hadn't been touched in 30 years. But certainly not to an extent where it would be notable as the last military use of the weapon.
Gew 98
Well-known member
Looks to be a carcano I think
Ahh yes ThankYou
Agreed, there are Carcano long rifles. Seems to be the base 1891 model over the M41.
Cyrano4747
Well-known member
Jesus, getting "trained" in Berlin in April of '45. Can you imagine being handed that crap and told to hold off one of the most experienced, best equipped, best supplied armies on the planet at that point? Those dudes would have been told to fend off some of the most combat hardened soldiers the planet has ever seen.
I know it is insane to think about really
Cyrano4747
Well-known member
What's the context of that photo? Doesn't look like VS to me, looks more like some kind of Party event, likely pre-war.
Also looks like a 71 jägerbüchse to me rather than a 71/84.
für die .43 Mauserpatrone
Cyrano4747
Well-known member
Das würde mich doch interessieren. Ich habe keine Ahnung ob ich es benutzen würde (Ich habe schon viel Schwarzpulver), aber trotzdem würde ich gern die Info haben.