I am new to this forum and think I now know what a DSM34, a Sportsmodel and what KKW's are. I learned to shoot with a KKW Gustloff my dad found in Paderborn Germany during WW2. I just purchased a Walther, Sportsmodel (stocked like a DSM34) with a scope and KKW type sling. The serial number of the rifle is 41xxx w, with the spread eagle over n proof. The block style scope mounts to the receivers grooves, is a see thru mount with a slight offset and the mount is tightened to it using a squared key I have. The scope is marked ZIELMI, over Nr4289, over a CARL ZEISS / JENA. My question - Is this a pre KKW German snipers training model or ??? Do I understand correctly that all of these pre KKW training models were military trainers and the differances are distinguished from what clubs used them? Thanks for all of your time. .... I also have a DSM34 with a very small propeller stamped on the barrel. Is this a club stamp?
Walther Third Reich Sniper Training Rifle With Zeiss Scope ?
- Thread starter dsm34
- Start date
mauser99
Senior Member
trainers.
welcome. the walther sounds like its all correct. These were avail for purchase. No way to say 100% if the rifle was used for training or not. Late type w.s.m.'s have a grooved receiver. Early ones don't. w.s.m.'s share the same receiver as the sportmodell V which was a common and popular sporter. Akah was another company that sold bases and mounts for .22 cal rifles as did zeiss for their own scopes. That sounds like its what you have. Photos would be a big help.
the dsm could have a DLV stamp on top of the barrel. look at the others posted here.
welcome. the walther sounds like its all correct. These were avail for purchase. No way to say 100% if the rifle was used for training or not. Late type w.s.m.'s have a grooved receiver. Early ones don't. w.s.m.'s share the same receiver as the sportmodell V which was a common and popular sporter. Akah was another company that sold bases and mounts for .22 cal rifles as did zeiss for their own scopes. That sounds like its what you have. Photos would be a big help.
the dsm could have a DLV stamp on top of the barrel. look at the others posted here.
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more pictures
If anyone needs more pictures let me know. I found a claw mount KKW 22 Mauser at an auction sight and it sold for big bucks. Is the value of this in the same ballpark? Thanks again for your responses.
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Thank you for posting pictures.
I am curious if the reticle centers well on this set-up.
I don't think this scope had self centering reticle and to achieve zero very possilby is off center.
If you have not shot it, can't be confirmed it is zero'd.
The mount and scope appear to be period correct but the mount appears to have been designed for some other application as the scope looks like it is off centerline of bore and receiver. With the windage in the mount, this may not be an issue at all left to right.
However, the rig is necessarily high for bolt clearance and that likley would place the reticle way off center up and down.
That said, it does not mean that this rifle was not done during the period and used either for sporting or training purposes. Many scope adaptations done to the trainers during the era were not highly practical set ups for good cheek weld, sight picture, or properly centered reticle.
Anyway, nice gun, great old optics.
My OPINION this gun was not used in this configuration as a "sniper trainer" but that cannot be ruled out.
With regard to value. ON any scope sighted trainer or 98K provenance means everything to me.
If your rig or the claw mount KKW rig you mention were obtained direct from a Vet or the estate I would have to give them some creedence. At a gun show and particularly if both this gun and the Claw mount KKW (would be a onesy of a kind if real for sure) you mention surfaced simultaneously with no provenance I would be extremely leary of either one at any price.
On line auctions always have alot of post war created and often well done and sometimes undetectable fake "snipers" using correct period components. The blue sky price you mention the KKW bringing is the incentive for unscrupulous bandits and they abound on auction sites.
Some folks would jump at either as "sniper trainers".
With that said, I am not berating the value of your Walther. The gun is essentially as issued. The mount and scope are period and even if not captured in this configuration both have good value independantly and collectively.
I would truely love to see good pictures of the "claw mount" KKW but am at the onset very skeptical that it would be real.
Just my 2 cents
I am curious if the reticle centers well on this set-up.
I don't think this scope had self centering reticle and to achieve zero very possilby is off center.
If you have not shot it, can't be confirmed it is zero'd.
The mount and scope appear to be period correct but the mount appears to have been designed for some other application as the scope looks like it is off centerline of bore and receiver. With the windage in the mount, this may not be an issue at all left to right.
However, the rig is necessarily high for bolt clearance and that likley would place the reticle way off center up and down.
That said, it does not mean that this rifle was not done during the period and used either for sporting or training purposes. Many scope adaptations done to the trainers during the era were not highly practical set ups for good cheek weld, sight picture, or properly centered reticle.
Anyway, nice gun, great old optics.
My OPINION this gun was not used in this configuration as a "sniper trainer" but that cannot be ruled out.
With regard to value. ON any scope sighted trainer or 98K provenance means everything to me.
If your rig or the claw mount KKW rig you mention were obtained direct from a Vet or the estate I would have to give them some creedence. At a gun show and particularly if both this gun and the Claw mount KKW (would be a onesy of a kind if real for sure) you mention surfaced simultaneously with no provenance I would be extremely leary of either one at any price.
On line auctions always have alot of post war created and often well done and sometimes undetectable fake "snipers" using correct period components. The blue sky price you mention the KKW bringing is the incentive for unscrupulous bandits and they abound on auction sites.
Some folks would jump at either as "sniper trainers".
With that said, I am not berating the value of your Walther. The gun is essentially as issued. The mount and scope are period and even if not captured in this configuration both have good value independantly and collectively.
I would truely love to see good pictures of the "claw mount" KKW but am at the onset very skeptical that it would be real.
Just my 2 cents
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Jim, I believe you are off by a few years. The Walther Sportmodell was listed in a 1934/35 Akah catalog No. 150, and so was produced concurrently with the DSM from which Walther borrowed the similar name through the introduction of the KKW.
I think your rifle, scope and mounts are standard commercial designed for these Walther grooved receiver training/sporting rifles. I have listed on my data base a Walther Sportmodell #41107w noted as E/N proofed and scoped. Perhaps it is yours?
Thank you for sharing your photos. This is not a claw-mount arrangement but one able to fit one of the many of the grooved receiver Walther .22s made in the period. Here is a similar scope arrangement found on a Walther Mod.1. I believe most of the scoped .22 trainers viewed have either the short side rail mount or the ZF-41 mounted scope. I can't remember which, but I know Bob had some in the Lager in Galesburg.
I stand corrected on production date
Indeed I am off on that as you note per the catalogs on it's introduction.
Joe correct me if I am wrong but these were produced out to 1940 and do exist with Eagle N proofs?
Or did they run out prior to 1940?
Indeed I am off on that as you note per the catalogs on it's introduction.
Joe correct me if I am wrong but these were produced out to 1940 and do exist with Eagle N proofs?
Or did they run out prior to 1940?
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May be wrong about the mount too!
Joe on the gun you posted pics of, is the tube off center to the right?
Do you think that is a Walther made mount? Alot of the grooved receiver Walthers turn up with period scopes.
I equate the Germans efforts at mounting scopes to the trainers to when I put a Craig 8 track tape player in my 67 Mustang by hanging it underneath the dash.
Not pretty or practical just the best option available at the time with the available technology.
Joe on the gun you posted pics of, is the tube off center to the right?
Do you think that is a Walther made mount? Alot of the grooved receiver Walthers turn up with period scopes.
I equate the Germans efforts at mounting scopes to the trainers to when I put a Craig 8 track tape player in my 67 Mustang by hanging it underneath the dash.
Not pretty or practical just the best option available at the time with the available technology.
Jim, they are found in 41xxx w through 43xxx w range with E/N proofs. Both the Model I and II shown above have E/N proofs. So production was active after January 15, 1940.
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They grooving of the receivers was not meant specifically for scopes. I think most of the use of the grooves was for diopters. My Walther Mod.I was originally without scope and mounts as I remember seeing it at the first Max Show in St.Louis in 1985. I passed it by thinking I could come back and buy it as it was a police presentation. I did not realize that Bob "Hoover" Simpson was following behind me and it soon ended up in the Galesburg Lager. I found something that Bob wanted really bad and he traded a few years later. And it arrived with the scope and mounts. They aren't Walther and the scope is on center.
Hello,
Thanks for posting good pics!!! here is info as promised. Your Zielmi was made in the 1922/1923 Calender year (June to June). Your scope is 1 of the 119 Zielmi scope made that year and is 1 of 3448 total scopes made for the year. hope this info helps.
later
vaughn
Thanks for posting good pics!!! here is info as promised. Your Zielmi was made in the 1922/1923 Calender year (June to June). Your scope is 1 of the 119 Zielmi scope made that year and is 1 of 3448 total scopes made for the year. hope this info helps.
later
vaughn
I also have this type scope mount on my Walther Sportmodell and Meisterbusche and Mod 2 rifles.
the scope mount is made to have the scope set offset to the right.with this configuration when looking through the scope you have a better check rest on the stock than with the scope set directly overbore.my scopes zero properly and the reticle is in the center of the field of view at 50m.
next time you look at a G43 with the ZF4 scope look at the position of the scope.it is offset to the right too.
the scope mount is made to have the scope set offset to the right.with this configuration when looking through the scope you have a better check rest on the stock than with the scope set directly overbore.my scopes zero properly and the reticle is in the center of the field of view at 50m.
next time you look at a G43 with the ZF4 scope look at the position of the scope.it is offset to the right too.
agalland
Well-known member
This scope on ebay is 20#'s off of yours... a close cousin...however it has germany stamped on it..?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zeiss-Zielm...aultDomain_0&hash=item33895479fb#ht_120wt_847
