Yes he did , but he still insists that it is original . Even thought I pointed out multiple differences between an original Cad an a Spielauer repro Cad.
Turd Alert/Suspect Cad Scope/ Robert Spielauer Reproduction
- Thread starter Dave Roberts
- Start date
Bigdibbs88
"Ach du lieber!"
For learning purposes, can you point out some differences? I’m not sure I could pick out a spielauer fake without a welded up focal ring. I see no differences in the side by side dial pics posted
A few different ways to tell if a Cad Scope is original or a Spielauer Reproduction Cad
1.The Tube and Rear Lens housing should have pairing numbers like in this photo below maybe a little tough to see the #924
2. All Military Kahles Scopes will have a Serial Number on Saddle
3. Sunshade will be made of Zinc/Pot Metal . NOT Aluminum . Elitecollection Cad has an Alum Sunshade
4. Inner Lens Housing Parts will be made of Zinc/Pot Metal . Not Aluminum . Elitecollection Cad has Alum. Innards
5. The Locking Screw for Ranging Dial should be made of steal
A few ways to tell a Spielauer Cad Reproduction Scope
Robert used predominately Kahles Helavier Scopes as his platform for conversion to Cad . The Kahles Helavier Scopes have a Focal Adjustment plate/scale . There is a slot in the tube were a screw goes threw that secures the scale ring to the inner lens housing for focusing the scope . This slot had to be welded and then the weld had turned/machined down to match outer tube . The inner part of the weld did not get same finish scrutiny as outer so if You remove the rear lens housing most often it is possible to see if a slot was weld up which will tell you the scope is not an original Cad . I attached pics of a Helavier scope as a reference for those who do not know what a Kahles Helavier looks like . Here is a few different things to look for to tell a Spielauer Reproduction Cad , the Sunshade will be made of aluminum , Inner Parts will be made of aluminum , No pairing numbers on the Tube & Rear Lens housing also the Dial Saddle/Turret will have no serial number also the locking screw for range/meter dial will be made of brass or bronze .
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Blackpowderresearcher
Well-known member
Dave - comsider writing a phamplet on spotting fakes plz
IMHO , first and foremost a collector needs to first learn how to spot an original scope and mount set . Second , you need to learn what the correct serial ranges for each type scope and what particular type of sniper rifle it is for . Scopes fall into specific serial ranges and that will tell you what platform they belong too . For example SSR , SS SSR , LT , HT and so on all these different types of Sniper rifles have certain types of scope that were used on each type sniper rifle and each type scope will have a certain serial range thats correct for the type of sniper rifle it used on .
The last two sentences above are particularly important to understand. With some study and a decent sample group of legit matching optics (mounts on the original scope that is) to rifles, one can get some pretty good estimates of the correct scope serial number range for each rifle serial range by letter block. That is very useful because it next to impossible without tremendous luck to find a scope of the correct serial range for a specific rifle letter block and of course year.
Absolut
Senior Member
I concur the sunshade is aluminum, especially since in the picture where it was taken out it is very bright and shiny in the threading. But from looking at the pictures the scope tube does not appear to have the focal adjustment welded. It might be a restoration on an original cad coded tube, but with new elevation turret, new rainshield, etc.. The assembly numbers could easily be lost while being refinished. The refinish is anyway quite obvious, because if it were original, it would not have blued areas where the turret rings would had been located (or at least the SSR mount would had left traces where the rings were sitting).
Absolut
Senior Member
Dave, just checked a few Kahles scopes of mine, both military and commercial: the pairing number is present on all of them, even post WWII. Therefore it maybe should be put this way, the absence of this number is a possible indication of refinish, because especially on the ocular piece it is very lightly struck.
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Absolut
Senior Member
Brian,
I'd be interested if you believe every part of this scope is not original, meaning do you even believe the cad was post WWII engraved to this scope tube? I concur with you on many parts, but I would not dare - without having it in hands - say the scope tube itself once was a welded commercial H/4x60 tube. So all I am saying is that some parts of this scope *could* be original. Of course this makes the whole listing problematic and happy that we address this here, all I'm looking to is to discuss with others if they also see something wrong with the tube that I cannot see.
Hercules
Senior Member
The CAD engrave looks post war most likely.
Georg
The Scopes that you said have pairing #s are these scopes (Kahles Wien H/4X60) or (Kahles Wien Helaviers) like the example I posted pics of in my earlier post ??
Georg the Kahles Scope that You looked at did (ONLY the Tube have a number) or does the (Rear Lens Housing) have a matching/corresponding number also ????
I ask this because , I just did a image search for Kahles Wien Helavier and Kahles Wein H/4X60 a number of these images showed only the Tube had a number no number on rear lens housing and yes it showed the scope from many sides .
Robert predominately used the Kahles Wien Helavier Scopes for his Repro Cad`s because these Scopes had No Serial Number and generally had no pairing numbers on Tube or Rear Lens Housing. This is how Robert helped identify is Cad repro scopes . The ones that I have had did not have any pairing numbers and no Serial on saddle , but I have seen on occasion a few that have had only a number on the Tube and NO matching number on rear lens housing .
The same can be found with the Kahles Wien H/4X60 some do have pairing numbers and others have only a number on the Tube and no number on rear lens housing so was were some changes made in production/manufacturing rules/regulations ?????.
Here is a Link to a Kahles Helavier H/4X60 Scope that shows only the Tube has a number # https://www.ebay.at/itm/254946604981?hash=item3b5c0077b5:g:z4kAAOSwdbRdpLEN You need to scroll down to see the pics
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In regards to the Scope in question whether or not it was a Kahles with Focal Slot and if the Slot was welded up or not .
I am pretty sure it not being seen because it is to far into the Tube to see it and I believe the Lens Housing and obstructions are keeping it from being seen
because the Slot is further down the Tube than what can be seen in the photos due to photo quality .
Here are 2 pics giving a very clear look at were the focal scale ring and securing screw is located and the other photo is of scope in question look at underside and notice location of the screw that fixes the inner lens housing . In a side by side Scope comparison the screws line up and notice how far into the tube it is . Then look at Pics showing the inside of the Cad Tube and notice the location of screw hole for Lens housing the Focal Slot would be in approximately same location only above the screw hole and You would need to have the Lens Housing removed to see if there were signs of the Focal Slot being welded up and there are no such pics .I posted the GB Auction Link so You can view the pics showing Lens Housing and the location of the screw hole .
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/960000709
I am pretty sure it not being seen because it is to far into the Tube to see it and I believe the Lens Housing and obstructions are keeping it from being seen
because the Slot is further down the Tube than what can be seen in the photos due to photo quality .
Here are 2 pics giving a very clear look at were the focal scale ring and securing screw is located and the other photo is of scope in question look at underside and notice location of the screw that fixes the inner lens housing . In a side by side Scope comparison the screws line up and notice how far into the tube it is . Then look at Pics showing the inside of the Cad Tube and notice the location of screw hole for Lens housing the Focal Slot would be in approximately same location only above the screw hole and You would need to have the Lens Housing removed to see if there were signs of the Focal Slot being welded up and there are no such pics .I posted the GB Auction Link so You can view the pics showing Lens Housing and the location of the screw hole .
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/960000709
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Absolut
Senior Member
I have checked both H/4x60 as well as Heliavier as well as other Kahles scopes (the post WWII models with lateral adjustment), all have the pairing numbers, all also on ocular piece (because otherwise makes no sense, huh?), on some it is partially gone due to refinish, on others fully present. So I can confirm it was factory to ALL scopes of this period, doesn't matter if commercial or post war.
Brian, thanks for the addendum of yours. Did you do a closeup font comparison too, or was this just your feeling?
heavy_mech
RKI- Reasonably Knowledgable Individual
Of course he does. Actually EXACTLY what I expected.
Hercules
Senior Member
Georg. I have several CAD and Kahles Scopes and that is how it looks to me.
m-rinehart.2
Member
I just saw this on GB. Came straight here to see if someone had pointed it out and sure enough, Mr. Robert's was on it. What should a repro such as this actually go for? I see it's currently bid to 400+
Robert Spieldauer use to sell a combo set which consisted of the Repro Cad with a set of HT Rings installed on Scope and also came with Bases , he sold those for $1250 USD a Set . His HT Rings and Bases were $450 USD . I would estimate that he would sell a Repro Cad for somewhere around $600 to $700 USD the rest would be his labor cost .
