The true origin/story of Russian captures?

W

Wilky

Member
Forgive if this is the incorrect place to post or has been asked before, I have yet to find an answer:

Has anyone ever read any literature as to the true origin of these RC rifles? My meaning is this: were they pried from dead soldiers' hands on the eastern front; taken from German supplies during the war and thousands of miles of retreat; taken from storage and various factories after the German surrender; or a mixture of all of the above? Have some of them seen war? Or were the majority taken from storage? All I ever seem to find in forums is the obvious mix match, shellac, cosmoline, 'Russian armourer neglect' story.

I may well be in the market for an RC in the next year or so and would like to know what kind of history these rifles (or at least the actions of said rifles) have likely or possibly had. I understand they are made up of various parts now and are far from original, but as someone who works with weapons I can kind of see past the mixed and replaced parts and see the action as the true heart and soul of the original rifle.

With that in mind, what kind of journey have these rifles had, at what period of the war were they captured and how were they in fact captured?

Regards, Wilky.
 
The story of RC captures evolves with the different stages of the war. Particularly after Stalingrad, hundreds of thousands of 98Ks and other weapons were captured by the Soviets who used them to equip entire regiments. As the war progressed ant the Reds were able to meet the weapons demands of their troops, the use of captured German ordnance was phased-out and the weapons were pickled and stored. As the war began to go increasingly in Russia's favor, captured weapons were sent direct to storage with the exception of those issued to Warsaw Pact allies and the DDR. We had an exchange professor long ago who had been a captain in the Red army and long before the RC weapons began to appear on the market, I asked him about the status of the weapons captured by the Russians. He told me that all rifles were detail stripped and separated by individual components and stored in barrels of oil but barreled actions were kept together. No effort whatsoever was made to keep anything matching and later, these parts were refinished and reassembled into complete rifles. I sent him an advertisement showing these when they began to appear on the US market. He was then lecturing in Canada.
 
oldcorps said:
The story of RC captures evolves with the different stages of the war. Particularly after Stalingrad, hundreds of thousands of 98Ks and other weapons were captured by the Soviets who used them to equip entire regiments. As the war progressed ant the Reds were able to meet the weapons demands of their troops, the use of captured German ordnance was phased-out and the weapons were pickled and stored. As the war began to go increasingly in Russia's favor, captured weapons were sent direct to storage with the exception of those issued to Warsaw Pact allies and the DDR. We had an exchange professor long ago who had been a captain in the Red army and long before the RC weapons began to appear on the market, I asked him about the status of the weapons captured by the Russians. He told me that all rifles were detail stripped and separated by individual components and stored in barrels of oil but barreled actions were kept together. No effort whatsoever was made to keep anything matching and later, these parts were refinished and reassembled into complete rifles. I sent him an advertisement showing these when they began to appear on the US market. He was then lecturing in Canada.
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Thank you for the reply. I'm not surprised the Red Army used such a fantastic rifle to supplement their own. I am surprised to hear that whole Russian Regiments were equipped with them, although I suppose I shouldn't be. If only these rifles could talk and attest to their history, especially the RCs handed out, still circulating and doing the business in war zones now. Germany, through Europe, Russia and on to the middle east and god knows where else. Fascinating.

If anyone knows anymore, please share.
 
It looks to me like non-universal parts were tossed. Lock screws, cleaning rods, sight hoods, bayonets, ZF-41 mounts, whatever. I doubt that this was an accident. RC guns tend to have good bores, so I would assume that the bad ones were melted down with the bayonets. The guns also have a sanded flat spot under the stock serial number, on the left side of the butt. To me, this means that the guns were all rebuilt at least twice. Why sand that spot, except to remove another number? The Germans never numbered them there....so....?

And as far as their origins go: I'm betting that they have all manner of origins. Battlefield salvage, depot captures, mass surrenders, etc.
 
This is just my take, but in terms of 'combat use' these as a group certainly have more going for them. The scale of the killing and conquest tells me only a small percentage of RC rifles do not have at least some blood on them. Imagine if they really could tell their story. While I'm not a fan of their ridiculous refinishing I have to respect how they got there.
 
nirvana said:
And as far as their origins go: I'm betting that they have all manner of origins. Battlefield salvage, depot captures, mass surrenders, etc.
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I'd be willing to bet the same thing. You just hear so little about it. Were most battlefield salvage, or did most rifles never leave the crate until capture; who knows? I hadn't thought of the mass surrenders. I dread to think of the rifle optics getting bashed against rocks and the more important weapons such as the MGs probably being destroyed and denied prior to surrender. Shame :L
 
heavy_mech said:
This is just my take, but in terms of 'combat use' these as a group certainly have more going for them. The scale of the killing and conquest tells me only a small percentage of RC rifles do not have at least some blood on them. Imagine if they really could tell their story. While I'm not a fan of their ridiculous refinishing I have to respect how they got there.
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With the scale of the Eastern Front it's perhaps foolish to not think that most have seen some action as you say. I couldn't agree more; a shame with the refinish, but respect where it's due.
 
Wilky said:
I'd be willing to bet the same thing. You just hear so little about it. Were most battlefield salvage, or did most rifles never leave the crate until capture; who knows? I hadn't thought of the mass surrenders. I dread to think of the rifle optics getting bashed against rocks and the more important weapons such as the MGs probably being destroyed and denied prior to surrender. Shame :L
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RC rifles have a wide variety of dates on them, pre-war up to 1945. The war in the east started turning in the beginning of 1943, but it wasn't a full blown retreat for a while longer yet. I suspect that very few guns, except perhaps 1945 examples, were captured brand new. Perhaps some others in spurts during the war, a train or depot here and there, but not a lot.
 
I find the RC guns fascinating. It's known that at some points the Russians had to take up anything that would fire, their own losses and not enough production meant that serviceable K98's probably got turned on their owners in short order. Certainly the RC guns we see with early production dates could be guns lost in the stalled offensive near Moscow, or Stalingrad, or anywhere else along the fronts where winter and opposition and lack of supplies stopped the Germans.

I've always looked at the losses that the Germans took after they stalled and the Soviets counterattacked and thought that a lot of K98's likely got captured then. Those guns captured in this phase of the war could certainly have been used by the Soviets unaltered, and only sent back to the rear when sufficient Soviet guns came up from the rear. These are the guns we see with early receivers, pinged out Nazi related symbols, evidence of multiple serial numbers on the butt (as mentioned very astutely above) and widely mismatched parts. These were likely rebuilt at least twice.

Ironically the K98's captured at the very end of the war are some of the more sought after even though it's pretty sure they saw no combat. These can represent the very last German manufactured guns, the very end of the line for the K98. I like these late RC guns, even though they are mixed up parts wise, they have the appeal of the rough "last ditch" Japanese rifles.

Some purists avoid the RC guns but I for one think they definitely have their place in a collection. This is especially true if you want a complete representation of the K98 story. Those early to mid war dated K98's have been through Hell, likely fighting in two directions. Yes they're parts swapped and restocked, but we know they saw action. I like them.




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They do indeed have an important place in history and offer beginning collectors modestly priced acquisitions. Also, I doubt that anyone is faking them. A buddy whose father was a Red army sergeant early in the war said that there were times when shortages were so acute that they could only issue one round per man. Anything captured was put to immediate use.
 
My RC is a 37 Sauer. It could marched into Austria, Czechoslovakia, used in the capture of France and then sent to Russia in 1941. I wish it could talk.
 
nirvana said:
It looks to me like non-universal parts were tossed. Lock screws, cleaning rods, sight hoods, bayonets, ZF-41 mounts, whatever.
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The locking screws, cleaning rods and sight hoods were probably seen as "extraneous to requirements" - i.e. they weren't needed for the guns to function, so why waste time putting them back in? With the vast scores of these parts available now, it makes one wonder if the parts were saved somewhere, and now some enterprising Eastern Bloc fellows are making money by selling them to restorers!
 
sheepdog said:
My RC is a 37 Sauer. It could marched into Austria, Czechoslovakia, used in the capture of France and then sent to Russia in 1941. I wish it could talk.
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French captured and used in French occupation zone of Austria weapons were handed over in 1955 to the Austrian B-Gendarmerie, as did most of the occupators in Austria. The B-Gendarmerie had an immense mix of various weapons in usage, both German and Russian, but also quite a few US weapons and the Police in Southern of Austria also had Enfield rifles. However, they did not use French weapons since the French seemed to anyway prefer the German weapons themselves..
 
Fascinating to hear everyone's opinions and thoughts on the RCs and for that I thank you. One final question; how do they find their way to market exactly? My understanding is that the Russians handed them out to foreign militia/pro-russian types during various conflicts post WW2.

Do they randomly find their way into the market from these places? Or do the Russians bust out some crates to sell randomly? Both?
 
Wilky said:
Fascinating to hear everyone's opinions and thoughts on the RCs and for that I thank you. One final question; how do they find their way to market exactly? My understanding is that the Russians handed them out to foreign militia/pro-russian types during various conflicts post WW2.

Do they randomly find their way into the market from these places? Or do the Russians bust out some crates to sell randomly? Both?
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I am of the impression they make their way here the same way Mosin-Nagants, SKSes, etc. make their way here: there are (were?) vast numbers of "obsolete" firearms stored for future use/sale, and these are being "liquidated". I've heard that Ukraine has/had a lot of these weapons and ammunition.
 
IMHO, the best thing about RCs is that they saw no postwar use so with the exception of the refinish, their level of wear is basically the same as when they were captured. The surrendered German weapons used by other nations in eastern Europe typically saw considerable postwar use and abuse by the time they were replaced. RCs offer an excellent introduction level for beginning Mauser collectors and shooters.
 
oldcorps said:
IMHO, the best thing about RCs is that they saw no postwar use so with the exception of the refinish, their level of wear is basically the same as when they were captured. The surrendered German weapons used by other nations in eastern Europe typically saw considerable postwar use and abuse by the time they were replaced. RCs offer an excellent introduction level for beginning Mauser collectors and shooters.
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Or, in the case of us Canadians, RCs offer about the only option if we want a K98 at all!

What bugs me is when gun stores (like our local one) sell every RC for the same price, no matter the outside or bore condition. I saw one that I really liked but the bore was absolutely garbage. Others have pristine bores. I don''t mind some dings on the outside - that's character! - but I do expect a decent bore for the prices we have to pay.
 
The quality control was inconsistent when RCs were stored. Sometimes the bores received a thorough cleaning while others clearly did not. Once they were stored, corrosion did its work on those of the latter classification. I've also come across many Lugers, P.38s and long arms that appeared pristine but had bores blacker than daytime television because their owners fired milsurp corrosive ammo and waited too long to clean them.
 
I have RC 243 1940 and has a bore like new. Absolute mirror, such as a factory. This rifle could not fight. It would, after a military ammunition was different. And it is made from the beginning of the war ... I love RC rifles. They are weapons with history.
 
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