SSDC dot 43?

[Absolut]

Sorry, I had concluded that from what you had said:

I’m assuming you consider the SSZZA4 rifles repaired guns, they are in fact new guns assembled from spare parts, so it may just be your interpretation of that. I’ve never seen a depot “repaired” SS rifle used to build a double claw.

You said the SSZZA4 are new guns assembled from spare parts and that you had never seen a depot repaired rifle as basis for a SS DC. Now that you made it clear that there could be SSZZA4 repair/rebuild the second part also makes more sense, that you simply had not seen that.

Quite complicated already where to draw the line from "repair/rebuild" to "assembled from spare parts", mixing this up with SSZZA4 acceptance and speaking on what could possibly be sent to Waffenwerke Brünn I for SS DC conversion this leaves quite a lot of possibilities. Maybe finding an original dot1943 coded SS DC might be as likely as finding an SSZZA4 repair/rebuild SS DC .

 

[stefanorobol]

Another curious chapter on this "SSDC" rifle and an alert for Italian/European forum members: an Italian gun shop is selling this rifle itself although they don't actually have the rifle.

I mean: I saw the rifle in person in a gun shop, and now I found the same identical rifle on a online sales announcement from a different gun shop. They are selling something they actually do not have.

If you need the name of the knavish gun shop, just ask.

Really unbelievable how the market of these rifles is going.

 

[mike radford]

Every time I see a DC I give it a quick look and walk. The one at NGD was surely a fake. If Mike and/or Bruce and/or Dave are not there I lack too much knowledge to even think about it.

Just read the rest of the tread. Great debate. I think I got a headache.

 

[Stephan98k]

Can only concur to that, one of the best threads we've had in the recent time. Not only successfully outed a faux sniper, but also lengthy and detailed discussion of SS rifles.

Good eyes and expertise, very well recognized with the fake sniper. I agree with you, a very interesting discussion and the topic is still relevant for a variety of reasons.

Now I will give my opinion on some very important things and to keep it clear and understandable, I will quote excerpts from the respective comments.

I will say it’s entirely possible that a dot 1943 could be used as a base rifle as the known/accepted byf43 and bcd43 all came from Army depots delivered to the SS as payment for labor supplied in Steyr rifle production for the SS. But the ultimate call is yours to make.

This comment is very important and I actually agree with everything. I just have to correct the K98k assembler, it wasn't Steyr. It was a payment for concentration camp labor supplied at Gustloff-Werke K98k assembly. The billing period (April 1, 1942 - March 31, 1943) is well before the start of the SS contract at Steyr and as is usual today, the workers are only paid after the work is done, not before. According to documents, the first attempt at concentration camp assembly of K98k rifles should be carried out in Buchenwald, it started in April 1942 and the bill for these concentration camp prisoners had not yet been paid.

to be 99.9% sure Id say no... But, there could be some odd ball recycled reciever dot used at Steyr so I never say never. But, it would certainly never be build up on an Army contract dot43/44 rifle..

This is so far from correct. There are plenty of byf43 and bcd43 marked ARMY contract rifles built as double claws, why would you exclude the possibility of dot43? Do you have knowledge nobody else does? Were there no dot rifles in ARMY inventory in 1943? But I see, nobody has reported one to you so they must not exist. It’s entirely possible any manufacture of 98k who had inventory in Army depots in early 1943 could potentially exist as a double claw. There are documents supporting the transfer of ARMY inventory to the SS in 1943……and no mention is made of specific manufacturers.

I agree with @mrfarb and in July 1943 the SS got paid with 8,500 K98k rifles, in August 1943 the SS got a second batch with 8,500 K98ks. These 17,000 K98k were the payment for concentration camp labor between April 1, 1942 and March 31, 1943. Like mrfarb said, the SS got these K98ks from Army depots and possible any manufacturer/assembler could potentially exist as a double claw.
There is a very important observation which I did, actually only the K98ks that were manufactured after February 1943 come into consideration. Normally, the Fz.Jn. always had enough K98k rifles in stock in its depots, normally there was a remaining stock of between 20,000 and 100,000 K98ks. In February 1943 the Fz.J. had only 2,508 K98ks left in all their depots and in March 1943 only 320 K98k rifles in all their depots left.

And the fact the SS was receiving regular deliveries (thousands a month) of rifles/MPs/MGs from the Heereswaffenamt. Its a little odd they would send so many depot built rifles for conversion, but by that point (late 1944/early 1945) deliveries from the HWA may have been curtailed quite a bit. Rifle inventories were very low in late 1944.

The SS was subordinate to the Army and was equipped by them with the necessary weapons such as the K98k and G.98/40 rifles as example. Very important, these weapons were the property of the Army and therefore could not and were not used for the conversion. The SS usually didn't got these weapons directly, the exceptions were the above-mentioned payments for concentration camp prisoner labor in the K98k assembly, as well as MG42 production. These special deliveries to the SS are evident in the Waffenamt documents and these weapons supplied for prisoner labor became property of the SS. These own K98ks they could use for conversions and they did it.
What is interesting is that at the end of 1944 the SS even received more K98ks for concentration camp prisoner labor, regular deliveries between November 1944 and February 1945.

The rifles used in SSDC production were drawn from SS depots. How did army guns get in SS depots in substantial numbers? These 17000 were sent to SS depots for work done at Steyr. But, Steyr was bombed in early 44 and I'm guessing this program must have ended then. So my guess is the 43 dated Army rifles used in SSDC production came from this batch, and imo could possibly include other manufacturers of Army accepted 43 date rifles supplied in this exchange.

Like I said it wasn't Steyr, it was a payment for concentration camp labor supplied at Gustloff-Werke K98k assembly between April 1, 1942 and March 31, 1943. The SS got the payment with 17,000 K98ks already in July/August 1943 - the Steyr factory got bombed in February 1944.

Nevertheless it's good you mention Steyr, in April 1944 the SS got another payment with K98ks for concentration camp labor supplied at Gustloff-Werke K98k assembly and they got the K98ks again from Army depots. My guess is the 1943 dated Army rifles used in SSDC production came from this batch. In May and June 1944 was another payments with K98ks, I think that was the payment for concentration camp labor supplied at Steyr K98k assembly. In the same months there was the payment for concentration camp labor supplied at MG42 assembly.

The SS DC documents do not speak on where they come from, only that they provide the guns. From looking at the number of guns we are seeing it seems to me that the "Army rifles" are extremely little, I bet for like every 20 SS DC sniper rifles you maybe could manage to find one different coded rifle, if not less. Then take another look at what the majority is - either SS contract, or even SS repaired guns. And remember they sent 500 K98k rifles per month to Waffenwerke Brünn I for sniper conversion. I really wonder where they shipped those from and how the few Army rifles got mixed in, since as I had said it wouldn't make much sense to send like in July 83 guns from this depot, 208 from that depot, 39 from another one and the remaining 170 from another one.

I assume that the 17,000 K98k delivered to the SS in July/August 1943 were not only K98ks, but some were probably G.98/40s. As you know, only the rifles with the best shooting patterns were used to convert them into sniper rifles. In the spring of 1943, Mauser also needed K98ks for its own production of sniper rifles. I assume that the most precise "byf43" had already been selected by Mauser before being handed over to the Fz.Jn. The SS received these K98ks that were not the best-shooting ones and had to select from these again the best ones for their sniper conversions. That's how the few Army rifles got mixed in.

How do we square this with HWA delivery documents showing monthly rifle deliveries to the SS/Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine? I find it a little hard to believe they weren't shipping guns to the depots of each branch.

I think one possible explanation could be the SS didn't legally own the rifles, even though they were delivered to an SS-HZA, and thus the SS was not allowed to ship them off to Brünn for conversion. I think this has its own problems--how do you handle rifles shipped back to Oranienburg for repairs? Field units aren't segregating by SS/Army owned--but it could explain why most used were depot built guns. Might also explain why some of the early SS repairs have scrubbed receivers.

Like mentioned in my former comment about it, these weapons supplied for prisoner labor became property of the SS. Therefore the SS was allowed to ship them to Brünn for conversion.

Are you talking about these documents?

View attachment 335456

View attachment 335457


If so, if I remember correctly the numbers in this document actually represent the SS contract (as we call it) that Steyr was making directly for the SS into the total number of weapons produced by industry. Think of it like an accounting for weapons made by the SS in order to keep the SS from hiding what they were doing from Speers office of Kriegsproduction.

I think the “+” note denotes the deduction of delivery of 12000 k98k for labor supplied in production. Perhaps the accounting department deducted some of what they owed the SS from this production? They were using army material for building them after all.

Maybe. I swear I had one from the HWA (Wa J?) that showed a single monthly distribution broken down by service and the line for the SS was a fairly high number (~15000-20000). But I can't find it and I might be confusing one document for this one. It still seems unlikely to me that the SS wouldn't have received regular weapons deliveries to the SS depots.

I think the + is noting what is outlined in the other document (paragraph 2) above. The Luftwaffe/KM appears to have been entitled to a certain percentage of monthly rifle production, and the deal with the SS was that the rifles owed by the Army as payment for labor would be deducted from the total monthly production before the Luft/KM monthly allocations were calculated. The HWA shorted the other branches to pay off the SS.

You are right, the documents from post #26 and post #33 belong together, it's always important to see the context. Here is another thread were I talk about this topic: Concentration Camp Rifle terminology
and the relevant comment:

To make it easier to understand, here is the Fertigungs-Vorschau document and the relevant part with K98ks is shown enlarged.View attachment 410369View attachment 410370

As I already mentioned, these white marked rifles are not SS K98ks, this assumption is a mistake and the Steyr SS contract is generally not shown in these Fertigungsvorschau docs.
The 22,260 white marked K98k are the 3% share of the Kriegsmarine from May 1944 to October 1944. Not SS, these are Kriegsmarine K98ks

Please look at the month of May 1944 and to the left of it is listed the following:
Heer
Luft
Marine
+ SS
Gesamt (Total)

As can be seen from this document, 148,000 K98k were expected to be available for distribution to the Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine in May 1944.
Heer should get 134,680 K98ks (91%)
Luftwaffe 8,880 K98ks (6%)
Kriegsmarine 4,440 K98ks (3%)

The 148,000 K98k is just the expected total amount that should be divided between Heer, Luftwaffe and Marine and that is why it is called "148.000+".


In the Bemerkungen (notes) is written: "+) Nach Abzug von 12.000 K98k für SS als Abgeltung der Häftlingsarbeit" the translation is: "+) After deduction of 12,000 K98k for SS as compensation for prisoner labor".

The expected total amount in May 1944 was 160,000 K98ks, the SS should get 12,000 and the remaining 148,000 K98ks was for the other branches. The SS should get 12,000 K98k in May, June, July and August, later the numbers got changed.

The explanation of how this worked can be found in the Volume II book, in the SS Chapter on page 732/733 (Please look at No.2 in the document) Here is the excerpt from the book:
View attachment 410374



My comment above is older, but still fits very well. The document also fits in the SS Chapter, but the text would have to be changed. The document actually belongs in the Gustloff-Werke Chapter.

Here is a very interesting example: Another late SS depot repair
This is one of the 17,000 K98ks which the SS got in July/August 1943 as compensation for concentration camp prisoner labor in the K98k assembly. This K98k was SS property, it got a new barrel, in addition a unnumbered Czech safety and cocking piece. Interesting selection of parts....

By the way, from 1943 onwards, the K98k spare parts were so scarce that an order was issued that even in the case of bulged barrels, the barrel should not be replaced due to a lack of spare parts. Only extremely damaged barrels were allowed to be replaced.

 

[Jdt]

Good eyes and expertise, very well recognized with the fake sniper. I agree with you, a very interesting discussion and the topic is still relevant for a variety of reasons.

Now I will give my opinion on some very important things and to keep it clear and understandable, I will quote excerpts from the respective comments.



This comment is very important and I actually agree with everything. I just have to correct the K98k assembler, it wasn't Steyr. It was a payment for concentration camp labor supplied at Gustloff-Werke K98k assembly. The billing period (April 1, 1942 - March 31, 1943) is well before the start of the SS contract at Steyr and as is usual today, the workers are only paid after the work is done, not before. According to documents, the first attempt at concentration camp assembly of K98k rifles should be carried out in Buchenwald, it started in April 1942 and the bill for these concentration camp prisoners had not yet been paid.





I agree with @mrfarb and in July 1943 the SS got paid with 8,500 K98k rifles, in August 1943 the SS got a second batch with 8,500 K98ks. These 17,000 K98k were the payment for concentration camp labor between April 1, 1942 and March 31, 1943. Like mrfarb said, the SS got these K98ks from Army depots and possible any manufacturer/assembler could potentially exist as a double claw.
There is a very important observation which I did, actually only the K98ks that were manufactured after February 1943 come into consideration. Normally, the Fz.Jn. always had enough K98k rifles in stock in its depots, normally there was a remaining stock of between 20,000 and 100,000 K98ks. In February 1943 the Fz.J. had only 2,508 K98ks left in all their depots and in March 1943 only 320 K98k rifles in all their depots left.



The SS was subordinate to the Army and was equipped by them with the necessary weapons such as the K98k and G.98/40 rifles as example. Very important, these weapons were the property of the Army and therefore could not and were not used for the conversion. The SS usually didn't got these weapons directly, the exceptions were the above-mentioned payments for concentration camp prisoner labor in the K98k assembly, as well as MG42 production. These special deliveries to the SS are evident in the Waffenamt documents and these weapons supplied for prisoner labor became property of the SS. These own K98ks they could use for conversions and they did it.
What is interesting is that at the end of 1944 the SS even received more K98ks for concentration camp prisoner labor, regular deliveries between November 1944 and February 1945.



Like I said it wasn't Steyr, it was a payment for concentration camp labor supplied at Gustloff-Werke K98k assembly between April 1, 1942 and March 31, 1943. The SS got the payment with 17,000 K98ks already in July/August 1943 - the Steyr factory got bombed in February 1944.

Nevertheless it's good you mention Steyr, in April 1944 the SS got another payment with K98ks for concentration camp labor supplied at Gustloff-Werke K98k assembly and they got the K98ks again from Army depots. My guess is the 1943 dated Army rifles used in SSDC production came from this batch. In May and June 1944 was another payments with K98ks, I think that was the payment for concentration camp labor supplied at Steyr K98k assembly. In the same months there was the payment for concentration camp labor supplied at MG42 assembly.



I assume that the 17,000 K98k delivered to the SS in July/August 1943 were not only K98ks, but some were probably G.98/40s. As you know, only the rifles with the best shooting patterns were used to convert them into sniper rifles. In the spring of 1943, Mauser also needed K98ks for its own production of sniper rifles. I assume that the most precise "byf43" had already been selected by Mauser before being handed over to the Fz.Jn. The SS received these K98ks that were not the best-shooting ones and had to select from these again the best ones for their sniper conversions. That's how the few Army rifles got mixed in.



Like mentioned in my former comment about it, these weapons supplied for prisoner labor became property of the SS. Therefore the SS was allowed to ship them to Brünn for conversion.





You are right, the documents from post #26 and post #33 belong together, it's always important to see the context. Here is another thread were I talk about this topic: Concentration Camp Rifle terminology
and the relevant comment:




Here is a very interesting example: Another late SS depot repair
This is one of the 17,000 K98ks which the SS got in July/August 1943 as compensation for concentration camp prisoner labor in the K98k assembly. This K98k was SS property, it got a new barrel, in addition a unnumbered Czech safety and cocking piece. Interesting selection of parts....

By the way, from 1943 onwards, the K98k spare parts were so scarce that an order was issued that even in the case of bulged barrels, the barrel should not be replaced due to a lack of spare parts. Only extremely damaged barrels were allowed to be replaced.

Holy crap! That is very interesting! I never woulda guessed and order went out for slightly bulged barrels to not be replaced.

 

[mrfarb]

Stephan, I have the document from Steyr regarding the payment with rifles. I will post it for you.

 

[Absolut]

@Stephan98k , PDF #5.