SS Rifle Variations

[bruce98k]

This should open up a big can of worms.

Here are the different classes of SS K98s as I understand. I put these in outline to help organize.

I. Scrubbed Gew98 variants with commercial proofing (37-41?)
A. SS short side rail conversion of above

II. Appropriated Heer rifles with DH on barrel and grip.(40-42?)

III. SSZZA4 - scratch built or usage of salvaged receiver(ie.VZ24) in build, or depot recovery (41-43)
A. SSZZA4 marking only - depot recovery or repaired rifle
B. SSZZA4 marking only - newly assembled.
B. DHk (Deaths Head K) + SSZZA4

IV. SSZZA2 - double claw sniper (43-44)
Examples can use non-SS guns or can be use previously built SSZZA4 base.

V. Steyr assembled SS contract/ Single Rune (43-44)
A. SS contract
B. Single rune

The member base can kick in here and elaborate/further define/correct/etc.
This will build and eventually migrate to a sticky or move into the bnz/ss data sticky.

Thanks and throw your 2-cents in the bucket.

 

[mrfarb]

I moved this post to a new thread as it's a discussion all to itself! Not much deep discussion in regards to this subject on the net. The fake rifles out there really skew research, so people are scared to say anything.

Bruce, your list looks much like mine. I would add the SSZZA2 Double Claw rifles were built using base rifles from byf, bcd, and bnz at least, possibly others (I've seen these 3). One thing that mixes people up is the SSZZA4 and SSZZA2 markings- these were 2 diffferent facilities with much different jobs in the system. Also, as the SS Zuegamt grew, it seems to evolved from the deaths head markings to the SSZZA* markings. There was also SS Zentral Zuegamt 1 which reworked some Machine Guns. So- SSZZA1 did MG's, SSZZA2 built snipers (and other work I'm sure), and SSZZA4 built 98k's and reworked them. These SSZZA* organizations were all part of the SS Zentral Zuegamt system. I've added this post to the SS sticky.

 

[mrfarb]

I added dates to my version, but need to research them a bit - these are off the top of my head. The Gew reworks probably started much sooner than I listed, and ended sooner. This is a study, not the final product. Chime in with more accurate dates if you know them.

 

[Bigdibbs88]

I've got a question with regard to the Steyr "SS contract" rifles. We know that they were not necessarily made for the Heer as the lack of acceptance on the receiver shows up earlier than it did at steyr and other manufacturers, but do we know for sure they were for the SS? Was there ever any type of documentation found saying this?

 

[bruce98k]

SS contract

I will defer to Farb on that one but its a save assumption that the single run and contract variations were assembled at the same facility, same time period and share near identical characteristics save for the applied rune. Since Steyr is his baby I will let him elaborate.

 

[mrfarb]

A better question might be "Who's to say single rune AND SS contract guns were not for Army use?" ((** clarification, from the future - the SS rifles were not used by the Army, documents discovered later clearly indicate that) Never forget that later versions of both have a large Eagle H stock proof ((** clarification from the future - "SS Contract" type rifles with "Eagle H" stocks were possibly used by the Army as they were Waffenamt accepted and therefore Army accepted). It was suggested once that the appearance of the Eagle H on SS Contract and Single Rune rifles may correspond to the re-introduction of this stamp to Army contract guns. This couldn't be the case, as that occurs in the b block of bnz4 rifles, and it apparently appears much later on SS contract and Single Runes, sometime in Aug.-Sept of 44 best guess. I'm not suggesting they were, only the question can go both ways.

As far as I know there aren't any period documents that prove either were for the end use of the SS, only that the SS had control over production of some arms from Steyr. However, as Bruce says, SS contract and single rune guns are identical in every way except for a glaring difference, the receiver. What is extremely rare is an oversize bnz43 single rune receiver, or an oversize bnz44 single rune (there are probably none is my guess). There are no (at least reported to date) bnz4 marked SS contract guns or SS contract guns using Radom supplied receivers marked bnz4.

The Heer contract and SS contract/single rune guns share many traits with each other as well, save for serial numbered parts. As I have time, I'll do a comparison of an early 1944 Heer contract bnz4 and a single rune bnz4 in this thread.

 

[Beswick]

Well I might as well ad my opinion, I think there are some converted Gew98s with a DH and no commercial proofs. I've got one that I think is legitimate, but the jury is still out on it. I've seen some RC rifles with a DH, non scrubbed receiver, and no commercial proofs.
I've attached some pics of my rifle and one of a rifle that looks very similar to mine, minus the LSR mount.

 

[CMHouchins]

Delete......

 

[mrfarb]

I'm sure he meant SSR- there were no SS LSR Rifles.

Beswick, your gun is one of the anomalies that fit somewhere in between. If I had to classify it by our rudimentary list, I'd put it in the II category, Heer rifles reworked again by the SS. I would venture a guess that your rebarrel was done by the Army, and then the rifle was reworked again by the SS. In my opinion, this class would be the easiest to fake, and the most care would be needed in buying one.

 

[Beswick]

YA! LSR! Left side receiver!

....I dont know what I was thinking. SSR, thanks for the correction Farb.

The barrel appears to be a former Gew.98 barrel cut down, it's got the S on top and is a Simson barrel. I think the barrel was replaced in the Weimar period, hence the Weimar eagle. I wouldnt be surprised if thats when the receiver was scrubbed as well. I assume that the SS cut the barrel, bent the bolt, and re-stocked the rifle.

 

[mrfarb]

The barrel appears to be a former Gew.98 barrel cut down, it's got the S on top and is a Simson barrel. I think the barrel was replaced in the Weimar period, hence the Weimar eagle. I wouldn't be surprised if thats when the receiver was scrubbed as well. I assume that the SS cut the barrel, bent the bolt, and re-stocked the rifle.

I wouldn't assume that the SS did the rebarrel/bolt/stock/Weimar proofing on it.You need to ascertain that first- as with any rework, try to determine when it was rebarreled. It's possible it's a Weimar rework, but you need to be sure. That's where I would start, with the base rifle. The reason it lacks commercial proofing may be because the barrel wasn't altered after the initial Weimar proofing- had it been shortened, I would imagine proof laws would come into effect. The German proof laws are very detailed and specific and were not deviated from (legally).

 

[Beswick]

I wouldn't assume that the SS did the rebarrel/bolt/stock/Weimar proofing on it.You need to ascertain that first- as with any rework, try to determine when it was rebarreled. It's possible it's a Weimar rework, but you need to be sure. That's where I would start, with the base rifle. The reason it lacks commercial proofing may be because the barrel wasn't altered after the initial Weimar proofing- had it been shortened, I would imagine proof laws would come into effect. The German proof laws are very detailed and specific and were not deviated from (legally).

That's what I've attempted to do, to look at it as a Gew.98 conversion first and foremost. That's why I assumed the barrel was replaced during the Weimar period. From what I gather, Simson barrels were prolific in the period, so it makes sense to me. I assume that the barrel has been cut down because its got the signature S on top and it was made by Simson (Which to my knowledge only made Gew98 barrels?). I am not aware of any K98 length barrels that have the S stamp or any made by Simson, so thats how I came to that conclusion. Maybe someone can shed light on that subject, if indeed there were some K98 length barrels produced by Simson and Spitzer proofed.

 

[palmerfa]

I have an 147 JP Sauer RC SSZZA4 rifle so was this a depot turn in?

 

[pabs.mauser]

Hi everyone I'm trying to find out more info on my bnz 43 k98. There's a stamp I can't find any info on. Can anyone help me with this.

 

[mrfarb]

Hi everyone I'm trying to find out more info on my bnz 43 k98. There's a stamp I can't find any info on. Can anyone help me with this.

Post war stamp for Waffen Franconia, a German arms seller.