SS Double Claw Scope

[mdarnell19]

Saw this SS scope the other day. First time I have ever seen one without a rifle serial number. Sure enough, D. Roberts has seen others and Spielauer has two pictured in his book. My best guess is they are armorer's spare for making repairs and never fitted to a rifle. Late serial number with scope serial number on the rear rings and no focus adjuster. Very interesting.





I think it would be a good idea to make a list of known scopes/rifles. Perhaps we would learn something.

So if you have a scope please post (I'll update this list):
1. Scope serial number and location of serial number (scope body or rear ring)
2. Style of rings (smooth solder or spot weld)
3. Rifle serial number (if there is one).
4. Focus adjuster or not

- A 48, scope body serial numbering, smooth solder, rifle number 1437 matching rifle with focus adjuster

- A 234, scope body serial numbering, smooth solder, rifle number 8243 matching rifle with focus adjuster

- A 347 with no rings, scope body serial numbering, rifle serial number 3814 with focus adjuster

- A 264, scope body serial numbering, spot welded, rifle number 7524

- A 408, ?, smooth soldered rings, rifle number 23136C with focus adjustment

- A 448, ?, smooth solder rings, ? with focus adjuster

- A 700, rear ring numbered, ? , rifle number 2986, ?

- A 850, rear ring numbered, smooth solder, rifle number 7855 with focus adjuster

- A XXX, rear ring numbered, smooth solder, rifle number 7832 with focus adjuster

- A ?, ?, smooth solder, with no rifle serial number with focus adjuster.

- A 1960, rear ring numbered, smooth solder, no rifle serial number with no focus adjuster

- A 2466, rear ring numbered, smooth solder, no rifle serial number with no focus adjuster

- A 2760, ?, smooth solder with slight adjustment, rifle number 8398 with no focus adjuster

- A 2783, rear ring numbered, spot weld, rifle number 7366 with no focus adjuster

- A ?, rear ring numbering, spot welded, rifle number 8586 with no focus adjuster

- A 3024 rear ring numbered, smooth solder, rifle number 4912 with no focus adjuster

 

[Dave Roberts]

Glad You posted it , Nice Scope in great original cond.

 

[Amberg]

.... My best guess is they are armorer's spare for making repairs and never fitted to a rifle. Late serial number with scope serial number on the rear rings and no focus adjuster. Very interesting.

Armorer's spare?? Fitting a scope to a rifle was not the job of an armorer.
I rather think these scopes were left over at the factory and captured after VE-day.

 

[Absolut]

The rings look soldered, not spot-welded what is considered the late variant. Is there a scope serial on the underside?

 

[mdarnell19]

Armorer's spare?? Fitting a scope to a rifle was not the job of an armorer.
I rather think these scopes were left over at the factory and captured after VE-day.

I had considered that also and it could be the case. Though, there was no factory that produced the SS Double Claw sniper rifle. They were assembled at the SSZZA2 depot. So my thought was that it is possible that this scope was left over and meant to be used to repair scopes/ replace a broken scope. Double claws were only made for a short period of time and they were likely finished assembling all of them months before the war ended. So I would doubt that there were rifles sitting there waiting to be assemble when the SS depot was taken by the allies. MrFarb can come by and correct me if I am wrong since SS depot stuff is rather confusing. Again, this is just my best guess.

Absolut, the scope serial number is on the rear ring. Another feature of later scopes.

Edit: I was totally wrong. There was a factory that assembled Double Claws for the SS, Brunn.

 

[ditch68]

Beautiful scope, a DC is on the top of my short list.

Jeff

 

[Amberg]

Keep in mind that the Czech Army had some SSDC rifles in service right after the war.
Where did they find them if not at the factory/SSZZA2 depot? Same spot!?
Only my thoughts.
BTW: very nice scope!

 

[mrfarb]

The scopes and mounts were supplied by the Czech firms, so easy to see how postwar Czechs had access to these parts without any access to German depots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mdarnell19]

Keep in mind that the Czech Army had some SSDC rifles in service right after the war.
Where did they find them if not at the factory/SSZZA2 depot? Same spot!?
Only my thoughts.
BTW: very nice scope!

Yes I had consider that also. Did the Czech Army remove the E/63 proofs when they used them?

 

[Amberg]

The scopes and mounts were supplied by the Czech firms, so easy to see how postwar Czechs had access to these parts without any access to German depots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, but "dow" was part of the Waffenwerke Brünn company!
IIRR all post war SSDC rifles are Brünn made.

 

[Hercules]

Hard to say which of the above theories is correct. The rings have WaA. These rifles were depot assembled and not factory assembled. Nice scope. Does it come close to fitting on a rifle? Both of my rifle numbered ones did. These were custom fit to each rifle. So if it was on a rifle it would have probably had a number. Like you said probably a spare. At least that seems like the consensus here. I like it regardless. So congrats to the owner.

Edit: Also, I have seen a scope A2760 on with rifle serial 8398. Which to me points to this scope being a spare unnumbered German scope.

 

[sauer]

hi here is his little sister
To Compare

 

[Amberg]

..... These rifles were depot assembled and not factory assembled. ....

What if depot and factory were the same?

PS: in WWI the sniper rifles were put together at the optics maker not at the rifle maker.
usually! ;-)

 

[Thorne]

Beautiful examples, whoever has kept them has done an exceptional job.

Was the windage adjustments done via the scope bases on these kind by drifting or by the scope itself?

 

[Dave Roberts]

Beautiful examples, whoever has kept them has done an exceptional job.

Was the windage adjustments done via the scope bases on these kind by drifting or by the scope itself?

The Windage is adjusted by rotating the Front Lens to left or right .

 

[mdarnell19]

Very cool Sauer. Thank you for sharing. What is the scope serial number on your rear claw ring?

I have no doubt that these un-numbered scopes were never fitted to a rifle. Same as un-numbered G/K43 and Long Side Rail mounts. And with WaA63's on them I find it had to believe they are post war. But I am opening to being proven wrong on that. I have never seen a legit post war Czech Double Claw. If someone has pictures please share.

SS Double Claws are a bit tricky. I do think that a distinction needs to be made between a Depot built rifle and a Factory rifle. Factories would mass produce items (in general) while a depot could build a small number of items. Therefore, factory rifles have more trends and features that can be followed. Depot builds not so much. But there are still some trends.

Here is my theory on how the SS Double Claws were made (and MrFarb takes credit for many of these ideas and can correct me on anything). These rifles were all built over a short period of time, like 5 or 6 months, not years. The SS wanted a better mounting system then the Short Side rail. They wanted to get back to the claw mounting system used earlier with the Objective Mount. They pulled the best rifles they had in their depots which include some byf 43, bcd 43, bnz single runes, bnz contract rifles and lastly SSZZA4 depot builds. They ordered scopes (with rings already attached) and bases from dow and then assembled them all in a short period of time. So "early" and "late" features seem to be misleading terms. I have seen "early" rifles with matching scopes that have spot welded rings, which is supposedly a late scope feature. Yet this scope and Sauer's are "late" scopes in serial number and no focus adjuster and they have the "early" full soldered on rings. Likely (and this was my original point) the SS ordered extra scopes to be used as spare parts. Why would they field something they did not have spare parts for? In the event a scope needed to be replaced, an armorer (or someone at the SS depot who was qualified) would have replaced the scope and numbered it to the rifle. Perhaps this is why we see "late" scopes on "early" rifles? All this is my opinion from observations. I am open to debate on this as it is all an educated guess.

 

[mrfarb]

Very cool Sauer. Thank you for sharing. What is the scope serial number on your rear claw ring?

I have no doubt that these un-numbered scopes were never fitted to a rifle. Same as un-numbered G/K43 and Long Side Rail mounts. And with WaA63's on them I find it had to believe they are post war. But I am opening to being proven wrong on that. I have never seen a legit post war Czech Double Claw. If someone has pictures please share.

SS Double Claws are a bit tricky. I do think that a distinction needs to be made between a Depot built rifle and a Factory rifle. Factories would mass produce items (in general) while a depot could build a small number of items. Therefore, factory rifles have more trends and features that can be followed. Depot builds not so much. But there are still some trends.

Here is my theory on how the SS Double Claws were made (and MrFarb takes credit for many of these ideas and can correct me on anything). These rifles were all built over a short period of time, like 5 or 6 months, not years. The SS wanted a better mounting system then the Short Side rail. They wanted to get back to the claw mounting system used earlier with the Objective Mount. They pulled the best rifles they had in their depots which include some byf 43, bcd 43, bnz single runes, bnz contract rifles and lastly SSZZA4 depot builds. They ordered scopes (with rings already attached) and bases from dow and then assembled them all in a short period of time. So "early" and "late" features seem to be misleading terms. I have seen "early" rifles with matching scopes that have spot welded rings, which is supposedly a late scope feature. Yet this scope and Sauer's are "late" scopes in serial number and no focus adjuster and they have the "early" full soldered on rings. Likely (and this was my original point) the SS ordered extra scopes to be used as spare parts. Why would they field something they did not have spare parts for? In the event a scope needed to be replaced, an armorer (or someone at the SS depot who was qualified) would have replaced the scope and numbered it to the rifle. Perhaps this is why we see "late" scopes on "early" rifles? All this is my opinion from observations. I am open to debate on this as it is all an educated guess.

That's roughly how I see it, but I don't think the SS cared about what mounting system they used. The old SSR mounts were proven to be flawed, and the SS had access to Waffenwerke Brünn engineers, and the double claw mount system is what they had.

 

[sauer]

the number is A 1960

 

[mrfarb]

Who knows what the highest serial reported is? Is it in the A 3000's?

 

[mdarnell19]

I think it would be a good idea to make a list of known scopes/rifles. Perhaps we would learn something.

So if you have a scope please post (I'll update this list):
1. Scope serial number and location of serial number (scope body or rear ring)
2. Style of rings (smooth solder or spot weld)
3. Rifle serial number (if there is one).
4. Focus adjuster or not

- A 48, scope body serial numbering, smooth solder, rifle number 1437 matching rifle with focus adjuster

- A 234, scope body serial numbering, smooth solder, rifle number 8243 matching rifle with focus adjuster

- A 408, ?, smooth soldered rings, rifle number 23136C with focus adjustment

- A 448, ?, smooth solder rings, ? with focus adjuster

- A 700, rear ring numbered, ? , rifle number 2986, ?

- A 850, rear ring numbered, smooth solder, rifle number 7855 with focus adjuster

- A XXX, rear ring numbered, smooth solder, rifle number 7832 with focus adjuster

- A ?, ?, smooth solder, with no rifle serial number with focus adjuster.

- A 1960, rear ring numbered, smooth solder, no rifle serial number with no focus adjuster

- A 2466, rear ring numbered, smooth solder, no rifle serial number with no focus adjuster

- A 2760, ?, smooth solder with slight adjustment, rifle number 8398 with no focus adjuster

- A 2783, rear ring numbered, spot weld, rifle number 7366 with no focus adjuster

- A ?, rear ring numbering, spot welded, rifle number 8586 with no focus adjuster

- A 3024 rear ring numbered, smooth solder, rifle number 4912 with no focus adjuster