Soldering a turret mount onto a rifle?
- Thread starter ZF41 K98k
- Start date
agalland
Well-known member
Its a job that is probably not for the faint of heart, or uninitiated in such things I would think.
But I do know that dedicated do-it yourselfers,and those that are highly mechanically inclined prefer to rely on themselves rather than pay for potentialy sub-standard work elsewhere.
If I am not mistaken they were originally done with silver solder but you would not need to do that in this day and age as it would be infinitely easier to use a modern flux based solder that would easily flow into the crevices after sufficient heat was applied to the metal.
Soldering the bases will be the least of your problems I would think ... on the other hand ,proper location of said bases will be highly critical and will dictate where you are going to place your rings on the scope.
Dont know if you have a scope in mind that you are going to use,but be aware that any scope with a rear focus adjustment will give you zero room for error.
Do you already have a complete set-up ready to install..i.e. bases with a scope in the rings..?
If so that will make things infinitely easier,but will still require "nuts on " accuracy in your placement
There is a gunsmith in the forum who has done such work ,and a machinest or 2 also I think, who have probably dont their own installls.Perhaps they will chime in.
Good luck...remember the golden rule... measure 3 or 4 times and drill once.
But I do know that dedicated do-it yourselfers,and those that are highly mechanically inclined prefer to rely on themselves rather than pay for potentialy sub-standard work elsewhere.
If I am not mistaken they were originally done with silver solder but you would not need to do that in this day and age as it would be infinitely easier to use a modern flux based solder that would easily flow into the crevices after sufficient heat was applied to the metal.
Soldering the bases will be the least of your problems I would think ... on the other hand ,proper location of said bases will be highly critical and will dictate where you are going to place your rings on the scope.
Dont know if you have a scope in mind that you are going to use,but be aware that any scope with a rear focus adjustment will give you zero room for error.
Do you already have a complete set-up ready to install..i.e. bases with a scope in the rings..?
If so that will make things infinitely easier,but will still require "nuts on " accuracy in your placement
There is a gunsmith in the forum who has done such work ,and a machinest or 2 also I think, who have probably dont their own installls.Perhaps they will chime in.
Good luck...remember the golden rule... measure 3 or 4 times and drill once.
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Thank you to both posters for the helpful replies, and especially to agalland for the useful info/tips. As for the scope and mounts I have, it's an already assembled set from Robert S. a military Kahles scope in HT mounts. I was also considering epoxy resin, and then drilling the holes in and screwing or just using the epoxy? Would this be a viable alternative to soldering which as already stated, isn't for the faint hearted?
Once again thanks to both posters, much appreciated.
Once again thanks to both posters, much appreciated.
From my experience epoxy will not hold for very long. And the small screws will not hold the mount on by themselves either. If I remember right silver solder melts at a very high temp and to heat a receiver to that high of a temp would effect the heat treating of the receiver. Hopefully Vaughn will read your post and comment on it, as he does this stuff for a living.
Epoxy
I have used JBWeld. It looks a bit like solder and has considerable strength. In combination with the screws it should work nicely. Just make sure that you prep the surfaces properly. I did a BNZ single claw and used the JB weld for the front mount (no screws there). The SC front mount has several square inches of surface area and I cut small indents on the underside of the mount to give added lateral strength. I may have posted the end product on this web site, but I definately posted on gunboards. I just finished a low tower (with the help of a highly skilled gunsmith). This rifle was recently posted on the "gunboards" site under "sniper rifles". My smith used some kind of epoxy, but put a release agent on the rifle (like glass bedding the mount perfectly to the receiver. It has worked nicely with just the screws holding the mount on, but I may JBWeld if the zero starts to wander. Accuracy has been excellent. Good luck!
I have used JBWeld. It looks a bit like solder and has considerable strength. In combination with the screws it should work nicely. Just make sure that you prep the surfaces properly. I did a BNZ single claw and used the JB weld for the front mount (no screws there). The SC front mount has several square inches of surface area and I cut small indents on the underside of the mount to give added lateral strength. I may have posted the end product on this web site, but I definately posted on gunboards. I just finished a low tower (with the help of a highly skilled gunsmith). This rifle was recently posted on the "gunboards" site under "sniper rifles". My smith used some kind of epoxy, but put a release agent on the rifle (like glass bedding the mount perfectly to the receiver. It has worked nicely with just the screws holding the mount on, but I may JBWeld if the zero starts to wander. Accuracy has been excellent. Good luck!
tjg79
Senior Member
If you intend to do this work yourself and you want professional results, you should read a few good gunsmithing books on the topic first. Fortunately, a few can be downloaded in pdf format. A good one is The Modern Gunsmith by Howe. Volume I of this two volume set covers the topic very well.
I don't think JB Weld is a good solution. That's bubba's work. To do the job properly, the bases should be sweated on with a hard solder such as silver solder. The task requires proper preparation by proper fitment, removal of bluing under the bases, polishing and pre-tinning. The bases should be mounted in place with screws and then sweated.
Have you priced having the work done by a competent gunsmith? If you've never done this type of work before and you're not equipped to do the work, it's probably best to sub it out to a good gunsmith. Otherwise, find some old parts and practice before you try for record. If this is a onetime affair, it'll be less costly to let a gunsmith handle this task and you shouldn't be disappointed with the results.
Regards
I don't think JB Weld is a good solution. That's bubba's work. To do the job properly, the bases should be sweated on with a hard solder such as silver solder. The task requires proper preparation by proper fitment, removal of bluing under the bases, polishing and pre-tinning. The bases should be mounted in place with screws and then sweated.
Have you priced having the work done by a competent gunsmith? If you've never done this type of work before and you're not equipped to do the work, it's probably best to sub it out to a good gunsmith. Otherwise, find some old parts and practice before you try for record. If this is a onetime affair, it'll be less costly to let a gunsmith handle this task and you shouldn't be disappointed with the results.
Regards
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+1. You can also take it back & get the job done the way you want it, if not happy with it.
agalland
Well-known member
I disagree..
In my past experiences I have come to discover that gunsmiths are no different than Doctors or Lawyers.
All 3 of them have the Diploma hanging on the wall that says they passed the tests required to graduate but it is not a true reflection of their abilities in the real world.
I am sure all of us @ some point in time have had an occaision to deal with doctors or attorneys and discovered that all are not created equal.
There are superlative Docs,magnificent Lawyers, and Smiths that are true Mechanics....and then there is everybody else which can range from good to barely competent.
Fact of the matter is....if he didnt do it right the first time... what makes one think he can do it right the second time.
A lot of guys will take on work and say they can do it when in fact they have never done it before.
When I sent a pic of my completed repop HT to Robert,he made the comment "You know,not everybody can do those correctly" and he is right.
Not sayin there arent competent smiths that are capable of taking on a job and doing it right even if they havent done it before. There are.
I'm just saying that there are plenty Smiths that cant.
Shop around and make your expectations explicitly clear. Point blank them with "Have you done this before,and are you 100% sure you can do this right,because if you cant I will not pay for it"
Lot of Smiths in this world and I am betting not many have done HT mounts.
Lot of disgruntled customers with screwed mounting jobs running around...just ask the good Smiths that had to fix them.
But I will repeat that I would be reticent to do it myself unless I had witnessed it being done in person previously.,and had a fair amount of mechical skills and tooling available.
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Southwest
Senior Member
Figure all of your costs, what you have in your budget and then decide which way to go. My experience has been that it is not difficult to have $2000+ in the parts for a reasonably decent HT repro. Doing a quality installation is small additional cost that will be worth the investment. Contact Vaugn99 about installing your mounts. For around $250-300 you can have a quality job. If Robert installed the rings, I believe all Vaugn99 needs is a stripped barreled action and the bases.
Regards, Al
Regards, Al
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tjg79
Senior Member
You're very correct. A lot of gunsmiths claim to be real gunsmiths, but a lot are nothing more than hobby gunsmiths or untrained apprentices that think they are skilled enough to get by. A real gunsmith is a machinist, mechanical engineer and woodwork craftsman with years of experience specializing in firearms. They have real machine tools and not the cheap Chinese copies. You should expect to pay a fair price for their work. It's worth it.
maxximmumm
The Weenis of Oz
I once had a gunsmith mount a scope on a 98 and it was done off centre bore
In the meantime I've mounted lots of scopes and also made my own q/d mounts (that do return to zero!) so these jobs are not impossible to do at all for anyone with basic tools skills and proper care
a first timer needs to avoid the wrong advice so often repeated on some forums
my suggestions are : firstly you would use low temp solder (420F melting point) - not silver solder - the soldering heat is NOT enough to make any change to the heat teatment/hardness of an action
successful soldering is based on keeping the heat within about a 10-20 deg range circa melting point - its not brazing nor welding you are doing so you never need to use excess heat, and if you do use a ridiculous amount of heat the solder will never set so you would just be ruining any chance of a good outcome
those 'soldering will affect heat treating' stories are just a complete nonsense
btw the front base screws used are mostly just a standby to hold the scope and mount on in the rare case that the soldering fails - same reason why there is a screw on the soldered on rear sight base, its a precaution against solder melting under extreme use
properly soldering the bases will provide more than adequate strength even without the screws, so the screws can be installed after the solder has set and test firing has taken place
ignore the idea that that the solder must be kept soft as the screws are screwed in - it just isn't necessary
and solder applied to both surfaces is also unnecessary - you should apply solder only to the base and flux the receiver where the base is being installed
to successfully solder onto a blued or phosphated finished receiver you must remove the finish in the area where the soldering will occur - emery cloth will remove the finish back to bare metal - if you fail to do that the solder job will fail either immediately or later in use- even using screws won't save having to re-do the job
you should initially do a trial fit of scope and mounts on rifle - see how the fit is for gaps etc if any or other problems exist - align scope and bore sight (use collimator if you have one ) in order to remove any possibility the mounting you do will be so far out that using the scope/mount adjustments won't be enough to get it back correctly aligned once permanently fitted- then mark the receiver to later more easily locate the bases correctly when soldering
if you haven't heated a 98 action receiver front section before (strip it so you are only working with the barrel and bare receiver) beware it may take more than 5 minutes using a moderate gas flame to get the receiver hot enough (near 420F to begin the job)
you must never try to melt solder onto an inadequately heated piece of metal as it won't set properly
the trick to good soldering is to have the largest mass object hot enough to melt the solder you have already put onto the lesser mass object you are joining to it, and let the heat radiating from the larger mass object facilitate the final 'joining ' of the parts - the bases being smaller in mass should be heated last to just below 420F so as to have the solder pre set but still 'hard' on them - you will keep the action heat right around 420F while introducing the bases to the action and the heat from the action will do the task of re-melting the solder on the baseswhile you hold the parts together - the you just let them cool enough to 'set' and harden- you shouldn't need 3 hands - lol
the rear base receiver mounting involves much less heat time than the front base will because there is far less metal to deal with
the final must do task is to check the strength of your finished soldering job - you can do do this by striking the soldered on parts with a rubber hammer or block of soft wood - a good hard hit - a proper solder job will pass the test and you can then be confident that the soldering won't fail at first firing!!!!!!!!!!!! p.s. softwood won't damage the metal =remember hit it hard!
when hit if the base comes off it wasn't done right! better to find out now than later when shooting
after test firing you can later centre punch and drill the screw holes and insert screws
THE WAY YOU KNOW IF THE TEMPS YOU HAVE ACHIEVED ARE RIGHT IS BY WATCHING THE SOLDER - the solder surface will indicate when it is about to 'melt '
got a question, just ask
In the meantime I've mounted lots of scopes and also made my own q/d mounts (that do return to zero!) so these jobs are not impossible to do at all for anyone with basic tools skills and proper care
a first timer needs to avoid the wrong advice so often repeated on some forums
my suggestions are : firstly you would use low temp solder (420F melting point) - not silver solder - the soldering heat is NOT enough to make any change to the heat teatment/hardness of an action
successful soldering is based on keeping the heat within about a 10-20 deg range circa melting point - its not brazing nor welding you are doing so you never need to use excess heat, and if you do use a ridiculous amount of heat the solder will never set so you would just be ruining any chance of a good outcome
those 'soldering will affect heat treating' stories are just a complete nonsense
btw the front base screws used are mostly just a standby to hold the scope and mount on in the rare case that the soldering fails - same reason why there is a screw on the soldered on rear sight base, its a precaution against solder melting under extreme use
properly soldering the bases will provide more than adequate strength even without the screws, so the screws can be installed after the solder has set and test firing has taken place
ignore the idea that that the solder must be kept soft as the screws are screwed in - it just isn't necessary
and solder applied to both surfaces is also unnecessary - you should apply solder only to the base and flux the receiver where the base is being installed
to successfully solder onto a blued or phosphated finished receiver you must remove the finish in the area where the soldering will occur - emery cloth will remove the finish back to bare metal - if you fail to do that the solder job will fail either immediately or later in use- even using screws won't save having to re-do the job
you should initially do a trial fit of scope and mounts on rifle - see how the fit is for gaps etc if any or other problems exist - align scope and bore sight (use collimator if you have one ) in order to remove any possibility the mounting you do will be so far out that using the scope/mount adjustments won't be enough to get it back correctly aligned once permanently fitted- then mark the receiver to later more easily locate the bases correctly when soldering
if you haven't heated a 98 action receiver front section before (strip it so you are only working with the barrel and bare receiver) beware it may take more than 5 minutes using a moderate gas flame to get the receiver hot enough (near 420F to begin the job)
you must never try to melt solder onto an inadequately heated piece of metal as it won't set properly
the trick to good soldering is to have the largest mass object hot enough to melt the solder you have already put onto the lesser mass object you are joining to it, and let the heat radiating from the larger mass object facilitate the final 'joining ' of the parts - the bases being smaller in mass should be heated last to just below 420F so as to have the solder pre set but still 'hard' on them - you will keep the action heat right around 420F while introducing the bases to the action and the heat from the action will do the task of re-melting the solder on the baseswhile you hold the parts together - the you just let them cool enough to 'set' and harden- you shouldn't need 3 hands - lol
the rear base receiver mounting involves much less heat time than the front base will because there is far less metal to deal with
the final must do task is to check the strength of your finished soldering job - you can do do this by striking the soldered on parts with a rubber hammer or block of soft wood - a good hard hit - a proper solder job will pass the test and you can then be confident that the soldering won't fail at first firing!!!!!!!!!!!! p.s. softwood won't damage the metal =remember hit it hard!
when hit if the base comes off it wasn't done right! better to find out now than later when shooting
after test firing you can later centre punch and drill the screw holes and insert screws
THE WAY YOU KNOW IF THE TEMPS YOU HAVE ACHIEVED ARE RIGHT IS BY WATCHING THE SOLDER - the solder surface will indicate when it is about to 'melt '
got a question, just ask
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tjg79
Senior Member
There's a lot of bubba in this post. You should consult proper references to know how to do the task professionally. The bolded portions don't comport with classic references. That's the first red flag of a bubba.
As previously mentioned, there are individuals that claim to be gunsmiths that do shoddy work. If the work is done professionally, you shouldn't be disappointed.
If you have the aptitude, you can do anything within the scope of your aptitude, but there is a learning curve. Not everyone has the aptitude. I wouldn't want to discourage anyone with aptitude from applying their innate skills, but they should practice before they go for record. Experience matters as well as doing the job correctly to obtain professional results which implies having the right tools and materials.
To do the job correctly without the benefit of knowledge and experience, you need to consult references. In general, internet references should be confirmed from reliable sources. The internet abounds with bubbas. For gunsmith work, there are a few references that are classics. The Modern Gunsmith by James V. Howe is one and if you can obtain a copy, you should.
There is a proper professional way to mount bases on the receiver and there are a lot of improper ways to do it. For firearms, the method of soldering and the choice of solder varies depending on the parts to be joined and where they are located. You need to know the properties of the metals involved and how they were heat treated. Research will answer all your questions. Don't rely on internet bubbas.
If you're not inclined to consult reliable references, do the proper research and perform the task professionally with the proper tools and materials, then you should consult reputable experienced gunsmiths.
maxximmumm
The Weenis of Oz
dear tjg79
You’re obviously upset with what I said – maybe you are a gunsmith – and my rendering the facets of the trade down to things able to be performed by any average person offends your concept of how things should be.
What you have tried to assert is just so trivial … it demeans you ……I say that because I note that the crucial aspects that I revealed in my HOW-TO-DO-IT were not challenged by you.
btw I have a personal library of guns and gunsmithing books far more extensive than I suspect you have – and that’s after having severely downsized by about 200 books just on 10 years ago.
Let's now look at the nonsense you did try to assert: you said you didn’t like the parts appearing in bold below
‘my suggestions are : firstly you would use low temp solder (420F melting point) - not silver solder - the soldering heat is NOT enough to make any change to the heat teatment/hardness of an action’
my observations are totally consistent with those of numerous recognised published experts in the gunsmithing fraternity (e.g. Jerry Kunhausen –The Mauser M91 thru M98 Bolt Actions – A Shop Manual, publisher Heritage Gun Books – this author being a highly regarded expert and author of publications specifically designed to educate and train , and be used by professional gunsmiths)
‘btw the front base screws used are mostly just a standby to hold the scope and mount on in the rare case that the soldering fails - same reason why there is a screw on the soldered on rear sight base, its a precaution against solder melting under extreme use’
despite what you may think, that’s the only substantive purpose of the screws – but if you want to argue the point please do cite for us any literature that you have that has researched this topic, including quantified failure rates(if any) of reliance on soldering, and specifically states soldering is an inadequate method of joining bases to receivers and must in every case be supplemented by screws
‘ignore the idea that that the solder must be kept soft as the screws are screwed in - it just isn't necessary
and solder applied to both surfaces is also unnecessary - you should apply solder only to the base and flux the receiver where the base is being installed
this simply states common sense – its standard soldering practice 101 – you can apply solder to both surfaces of items to be joined if you want, but like I said its unnecessary, the screws can be screwed in any time – there is no need to keep the solder soft – if you want to do it while the solder is soft go right ahead but there’s no need to do it that way, so my point is valid – again, you go right ahead and post up your sources saying there is only one way to do it right and that is your way – I’m waiting!
‘the final must do task is to check the strength of your finished soldering job - you can do do this by striking the soldered on parts with a rubber hammer or block of soft wood - a good hard hit - a proper solder job will pass the test and you can then be confident that the soldering won't fail at first firing!!!!!!!!!!!! p.s. softwood won't damage the metal =remember hit it hard!’
only a total dimwit fool would omit checking the efficacy of their soldering job before firing the rifle with a scope mounted, particularly if it’s a 8x57
with the recoil that cartridge generates its mandatory you should perform a safety check – my method is an effective simple and easy test to perform – most professional gunsmiths would do an impact test before returning the newly mounted firearm to their client but clearly are not going to be as blunt about it as I have been in case the client might get upset about the treatment of his/her favorite rifle
my further advice to you is I have extensive experience soldering mounts, including making them and fitting them - everything I’ve written I’ve actually done and it has proved flawless including under severe competition usage of rifle and mounts
p.s. :you may need to be a bit more cautious in future about who you call a bubba
You’re obviously upset with what I said – maybe you are a gunsmith – and my rendering the facets of the trade down to things able to be performed by any average person offends your concept of how things should be.
What you have tried to assert is just so trivial … it demeans you ……I say that because I note that the crucial aspects that I revealed in my HOW-TO-DO-IT were not challenged by you.
btw I have a personal library of guns and gunsmithing books far more extensive than I suspect you have – and that’s after having severely downsized by about 200 books just on 10 years ago.
Let's now look at the nonsense you did try to assert: you said you didn’t like the parts appearing in bold below
‘my suggestions are : firstly you would use low temp solder (420F melting point) - not silver solder - the soldering heat is NOT enough to make any change to the heat teatment/hardness of an action’
my observations are totally consistent with those of numerous recognised published experts in the gunsmithing fraternity (e.g. Jerry Kunhausen –The Mauser M91 thru M98 Bolt Actions – A Shop Manual, publisher Heritage Gun Books – this author being a highly regarded expert and author of publications specifically designed to educate and train , and be used by professional gunsmiths)
‘btw the front base screws used are mostly just a standby to hold the scope and mount on in the rare case that the soldering fails - same reason why there is a screw on the soldered on rear sight base, its a precaution against solder melting under extreme use’
despite what you may think, that’s the only substantive purpose of the screws – but if you want to argue the point please do cite for us any literature that you have that has researched this topic, including quantified failure rates(if any) of reliance on soldering, and specifically states soldering is an inadequate method of joining bases to receivers and must in every case be supplemented by screws
‘ignore the idea that that the solder must be kept soft as the screws are screwed in - it just isn't necessary
and solder applied to both surfaces is also unnecessary - you should apply solder only to the base and flux the receiver where the base is being installed
this simply states common sense – its standard soldering practice 101 – you can apply solder to both surfaces of items to be joined if you want, but like I said its unnecessary, the screws can be screwed in any time – there is no need to keep the solder soft – if you want to do it while the solder is soft go right ahead but there’s no need to do it that way, so my point is valid – again, you go right ahead and post up your sources saying there is only one way to do it right and that is your way – I’m waiting!
‘the final must do task is to check the strength of your finished soldering job - you can do do this by striking the soldered on parts with a rubber hammer or block of soft wood - a good hard hit - a proper solder job will pass the test and you can then be confident that the soldering won't fail at first firing!!!!!!!!!!!! p.s. softwood won't damage the metal =remember hit it hard!’
only a total dimwit fool would omit checking the efficacy of their soldering job before firing the rifle with a scope mounted, particularly if it’s a 8x57
with the recoil that cartridge generates its mandatory you should perform a safety check – my method is an effective simple and easy test to perform – most professional gunsmiths would do an impact test before returning the newly mounted firearm to their client but clearly are not going to be as blunt about it as I have been in case the client might get upset about the treatment of his/her favorite rifle
my further advice to you is I have extensive experience soldering mounts, including making them and fitting them - everything I’ve written I’ve actually done and it has proved flawless including under severe competition usage of rifle and mounts
p.s. :you may need to be a bit more cautious in future about who you call a bubba
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It looks like the experts have chimed in. If you are trying to make a perfect replica, what they say is very relevant. If not - I can testify JBWeld works. Especially in combination with screws. However, the metal prep is very important. My smith had an epoxy that was permanent (stronger than JBWeld). There are epoxies out there with extreme strength. The question is how you get if off if you ever have to.
I had a loose muzzle brake on a semi auto rifle (a pinned on Century Arms abortion). It was screwing up accuracy. The smith used a watery epoxy and poured it down into the cracks between the barrel and the brake. The brake is still solid 15 years and a 1,000 rounds later. You can imagine how much force has been inflicted on that muzzle brake.
tjg79
Senior Member
JB Weld is the weakest choice for mounting scope mounts. The tensile strength is about 3960 PSI. The lowest temp soft solders are in the range of 4000 PSI. Silver solders, or hard solders, vary in the percent of silver, but require increased temp and have significantly higher tensile strength in the range from about 14,000 to over 80,000 PSI. The solder joint is more likely to fail due to shear strength and it's about 60% of the tensile strength.
The strength of the joint depends on how well the parts are fitted. Minimum space or perfect machine fit yields the strongest joint if done correctly.
Contrary to what bubba indicated above, his comments are not consistent with Jerry Kuhnhausen or James V Howe.
The strength of the joint depends on how well the parts are fitted. Minimum space or perfect machine fit yields the strongest joint if done correctly.
Contrary to what bubba indicated above, his comments are not consistent with Jerry Kuhnhausen or James V Howe.
You are correct. Solder is stronger - no debate. However, finding someone that will do it can be difficult.
Regards!
