Sauer high turret sniper

[mauser99]

Ooops, I meant SSR not SLR. Just realized what I put.

So, is it safe to say Sauer was doing the LSR's and HT's at the same time maybe? I know there are some really early Sauer LSR's ('43 into '44), but not many. I really had no idea there were any Sauer HT's (All this time I thought only Mauser did the HT's). Forgive me, I'm learning and trying to understand the snipers.

going off memory Most JPS Lsr's are in the u-x block and possibly one y block noted but it's a real odd duck.

We have just noted a JPS HT in the r block. And I cant say I have heard or seen one later even though I'm sure they did exist. Weather or not they were made during the same time I don't know 100%.

Lsr's were snipers from the start and were assembled @ JPS. Where a HT started life a base rifle and was chosen for accuracy first then Made into a sniper rifle.

Gothic Mod marked E/280 standard receivers show up to near the end so its possible an HT could have been mad here or there.

 

[Tiger 2 Tank]

going off memory Most JPS Lsr's are in the u-x block and possibly one y block noted but it's a real odd duck.

We have just noted a JPS HT in the r block. And I cant say I have heard or seen one later even though I'm sure they did exist. Weather or not they were made during the same time I don't know 100%.

Lsr's were snipers from the start and were assembled @ JPS. Where a HT started life a base rifle and was chosen for accuracy first then Made into a sniper rifle.

Gothic Mod marked E/280 standard receivers show up to near the end so its possible an HT could have been mad here or there.

I'm fortunate to have run into this thread as I just had no idea Sauer made HT sniper rifles. So, I guess what I've learned is that JP Sauer developed the SSR's and LSR's and maybe stopped the production of these or continued them here and there after production was turned over to bcd. During this time, it sounds like Sauer was getting rifles and making them into HT's here and there while producing regular K.98k's. Then, in the u-x blocks started LSR production up again. Then giving it all up to MP44 production. Correct? Or, am I still not getting it?

 

[Hercules]

I'm fortunate to have run into this thread as I just had no idea Sauer made HT sniper rifles. So, I guess what I've learned is that JP Sauer developed the SSR's and LSR's and maybe stopped the production of these or continued them here and there after production was turned over to bcd. During this time, it sounds like Sauer was getting rifles and making them into HT's here and there while producing regular K.98k's. Then, in the u-x blocks started LSR production up again. Then giving it all up to MP44 production. Correct? Or, am I still not getting it?

Sounds right to me. I think the CE marked LSR receivers started in late 1943. I am sure there is one somewhere, but I have never seen a finished one. There is a picture of an undrilled CE 43 receiver in the Kriegsmodell Book on page 316.

 

[Dave Roberts]

Sounds right to me. I think the CE marked LSR receivers started in late 1943. I am sure there is one somewhere, but I have never seen a finished one. There is a picture of an undrilled CE 43 receiver in the Kriegsmodell Book on page 316.

CE coded LSR Rifle do exist but they are not common at least in respect to those that survived the War .

Tiger Tank 2 you made reference to not knowing about Sauer HT`s . Were You aware that Sauer also made LT`s . I was not aware of this until it was brought to my attention a while back . I enjoy learning and being educated it is an enjoyable part of collecting .

 

[Tiger 2 Tank]

CE coded LSR Rifle do exist but they are not common at least in respect to those that survived the War .

Tiger Tank 2 you made reference to not knowing about Sauer HT`s . Were You aware that Sauer also made LT`s . I was not aware of this until it was brought to my attention a while back . I enjoy learning and being educated it is an enjoyable part of collecting .

No, I sure didn't. I only thought Mauser did those types and Sauer had developed the SSR and LSR's.

There was a CE 43 LSR posted here once (I think it was here). Rare for sure!

 

[Amberg]

There is a picture of an undrilled CE 43 receiver in the Kriegsmodell Book on page 316.

Just another one.

 

[Dave Roberts]

Just another one.

Thats a VERY Familiar looking Sauer Thick Sidewall Rec Rifle . Thanks for sharing it . Best Regards .

 

[Amberg]

Would be interesting to find out why Sauer did not finish the ce43 Thick Sidewall Receivers (c, e, and f-block), but rather continued with SSR rifles, l-block.
http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?19221-CE-43-Sniper-Value/page2

 

[Hercules]

Would be interesting to find out why Sauer did not finish the ce43 Thick Sidewall Receivers (c, e, and f-block), but rather continued with SSR rifles, l-block.
http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?19221-CE-43-Sniper-Value/page2

It would be interesting to know for sure. Maybe they did not pass accuracy standards. There must be one some where that got finished in WWII. We just have not seen one. Thanks for posting.

 

[Dave Roberts]

Would be interesting to find out why Sauer did not finish the ce43 Thick Sidewall Receivers (c, e, and f-block), but rather continued with SSR rifles, l-block.
http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?19221-CE-43-Sniper-Value/page2

It seems to be a very poor chose to keep these as regular K98 configurations when extra time & effort went into Rec production and were as Sniper Rifles were in high demand threw out the War . IMHO I would think it would be manufacturing issue or something along those lines that would keep them from being completed . Maybe there was a shortage of optics or issue with mount production at this time or even as was mentioned accuracy issue or possibly Receiver specific issue . One is a possible as the other were as it guessing at this point .

Wolfgang is there any info as to were the Allied Bombing was concentrated in this period maybe Walther area or in the area of Optics producers . Best Regards .

 

[starsnbars56]

Sauer HT

Nice rifle Dave and very glad to see another CE HT come out of the wood works. Erma receiver seems to be the norm for the late Sauer HT's. You've got one impressive collection of snipers!

 

[Dave Roberts]

Nice rifle Dave and very glad to see another CE HT come out of the wood works. Erma receiver seems to be the norm for the late Sauer HT's. You've got one impressive collection of snipers!

Hi James Thank You for the compliment , I am very happy to have found it . My ultimate quest is to eventually have all my examples to be 100% matching optics included . Which if I remember correctly we spoke about this awhile back . One in particular I am hoping to have someday in my collection should the opportunity arise in near future . Best Regards .





I wish to Thank all the members for the nice compliments given about this Rifle . Thank You All !!!!

 

[Amberg]

Wolfgang is there any info as to were the Allied Bombing was concentrated in this period maybe Walther area or in the area of Optics producers . Best Regards .

For 1943, I did not find any information on Allied bombings in that areas. My guess goes towards a desperate need of rifles in Russia.
Lost battle at Stalingrad, fierce fightings at Charkow, surrender of the Afrika Korps.

 

[Dave Roberts]

For 1943, I did not find any information on Allied bombings in that areas. My guess goes towards a desperate need of rifles in Russia.
Lost battle at Stalingrad, fierce fightings at Charkow, surrender of the Afrika Korps.

Thank You for looking Wolfgang . I suspect Your though/guess is very plausible one . Looking at this from a realistic point I find it hard to understand or imagine making a specialized Receiver with the added machining involved to just abandon that and use as regular Infantry Rifle seems to me a waste of Specialized and Purpose built Rifle . That said the Nazi`s were far from Realistic at times in fact they did so down right stupid shite .lol!!!! Best Regards

 

[Warrior1354]

Can't agree more Dave. If you think about all the different designs, mounts, scope types the Germans field on their snipers rifles compare to say the Russian PU model. Its makes you begin to raise eye brows and think "this has too be expensive to make." But that also goes back to almost every type of Russian weapon: Cheap to make, ugly but pretty in a way, works in almost every environment, and way too damn good at its job.

 

[Amberg]

Can't agree more Dave. If you think about all the different designs, mounts, scope types the Germans field on their snipers rifles compare to say the Russian PU model. Its makes you begin to raise eye brows and think "this has too be expensive to make." ........

From my point of view, this is just another aspect that proves that they had to use what they had on hand.

The only purpose made/developed scopes and mounts are ZF41 and ZF4.
Everything else was developed way before the war and at best saw some improvement during the war.

SS DC (SEM): already used in WWI
SS DC (for dow scopes) similar design already used in WWI
SSR: the ancestor of this HWZ design dates back to WWI
Turret Mount: developed for Argentina in the early 1930s

Same thing with the scopes. Nothing but modified commercial hunting scopes.

 

[Absolut]

Probably the flat wall receiver was originally designed for a different mount, but they had issues and re-design the mount and to avoid interrupting the supply of snipers in general switched back to the SSR system, until everything was ready. Like it was originally intended for the ZF4 scope, which Sauer later made up with the CE44 coded "swept back" rifles. Or they had problems with securing the screws, which was why they later added the stopping pins and securing screws as with the SSR.

Are the Sauer flat wall receivers fully casted and milled flat? I wonder if anyone ever considered that they just welded something to the receiver at the beginning? Making a new casting form is quite expensive for some trials.

 

[mike radford]

From my point of view, this is just another aspect that proves that they had to use what they had on hand.

The only purpose made/developed scopes and mounts are ZF41 and ZF4.
Everything else was developed way before the war and at best saw some improvement during the war.

SS DC (SEM): already used in WWI
SS DC (for dow scopes) similar design already used in WWI
SSR: the ancestor of this HWZ design dates back to WWI
Turret Mount: developed for Argentina in the early 1930s

Same thing with the scopes. Nothing but modified commercial hunting scopes.

Very good points. It seems the Germans were always playing catch up on sniper rifles. The Soviets were way ahead, especially with regard to numbers and development, even before the war began. The priorities were apparently also different.

I think, that I the war had continued another year or more the swept back would have become the standard sniper to manufacture. Like the PU platform, it was gonna be pretty simple and inexpensive to make in large numbers, and most likely quite effective.

 

[mrfarb]

Are the Sauer flat wall receivers fully casted and milled flat? I wonder if anyone ever considered that they just welded something to the receiver at the beginning? Making a new casting form is quite expensive for some trials.

The early Sauer flat receivers are forged like that, they don't have a section cobbled on with a welder. That's how the fakes are made though, just recently one of those fakes sold on Gunbroker and I bought one like that once.

As to early type bases, the earliest LSR receiver mounts were different in that they had just 1 screw holding the base on. I thought Senich had a photo of one in his book but I can't find it. Dave Roberts knows the type, I found one for him once but he wasn't able to get it.

 

[Dave Roberts]

Here are Pics of the Rifle Mike made reference too. There is another Example of this Early Variant LSR Rifle Pictured in Senich Book on pg.441 at bottom . Best Regards.