S28 to Karab98b Evolution - new insights

[bruce98k]

I have been working on additional data on this subject and information has come to light regarding the involvement of Mauser Oberndorf in the design of the Karab98b.
I am assuming that the S28 clearly pre-dates the initial production at Simson and if so I believe we have a clearer picture of what was happening during this period.

In addition, I would also assume that the S28 program was completely off the books as far as the control commission was concerned, making that program clandestine.

I will be updating this thread accordingly.

Added PM: The timeline of S28 production is not well established so look forward to discussion on this.

 

[chrisftk]

I have been working on additional data on this subject and information has come to light regarding the involvement of Mauser Oberndorf in the design of the Karab98b.
I am assuming that the S28 clearly pre-dates the initial production at Simson and if so I believe we have a clearer picture of what was happening during this period.

In addition, I would also assume that the S28 program was completely off the books as far as the control commission was concerned, making that program clandestine.

I will be updating this thread accordingly.

Added PM: The timeline of S28 production is not well established so look forward to discussion on this.

Bruce, glad this topic is getting some more attention. The s28s are a personal favorite.

So Simson got up and running on 98b in 1924 (at least the earliest dated examples) Thats around the same period as the earliest Zeithan 98M builds-- are you thinking the S28 predated both of those? The timeline has always been murky, so it'd be interesting if we could pin it down. I had always seen these as secret supplemental production to Simson rifles. If they predate them, that is even more interesting.

These were absolutely clandestine--in my opinion-- Particularly when you think of the faux imperial c/O acceptance and the fake "1920" property marks applied to some. Clearly trying to make them appear older.

It seems like the earliest S28 iterations were assembled using surplus WOK/DWM (or Oberspree) receivers. I posted such a rifle I have a while back. It's sadly just a b/r and mag assembly though, so unclear if it was 98b configuration or a 98m.

1918 DWM / Oberspree "Proto-S28"

Hi All, I had this out for fresh photos the other night after a discussion with a couple members. I picked this one up on the cheap a few years ago. It's basically a composite of 3 rifles. The 98m bolt in it matches itself and the stock, bands and buttplate/bayo lug match themselves (again...

www.k98kforum.com

I also have a partial "no letter" block s28 and a matching "b" block s28 with a Spandau depot replaced bolt. Happy to provide information on any of them if it helps the cause.

Looking forward to learning more on these.

 

[bruce98k]

I could use any images of the bottom of the rear sight base and the bottom of the receiver just behind the recoil lug.

Super thanks!

 

[chrisftk]

I could use any images of the bottom of the rear sight base and the bottom of the receiver just behind the recoil lug.

Super thanks!

Here are a few old pics on hand that I have of the two S28s. If these don't show what you need, I can try to take them apart this weekend for better pics.

no suffix:


"b" suffix:

 

[bruce98k]

Looks like the no suffix uses a Simson barrel assembly along with a Simson rear sight group.
Receiver is definitely not Simson though.

 

[chrisftk]

Looks like the no suffix uses a Simson barrel assembly along with a Simson rear sight group.
Receiver is definitely not Simson though.

I went back and looked deeper at the no suffix data I had. I realized it's a later rebarrel, so unfortunately not too helpful for S28 study from a barrel/rear sight standpoint.

The matching b block has the original barrel though with c/o acceptance on both the barrel and sight base.

One more interesting picture; the bottom of that DWM/Oberspree "proto S28" (for lack of a better term) has an open bottom to the sight base with crown/o acceptance on both the barrel and side of the sight base.

 

[Telperion]

Here are mine; sorry for the poor quality but I don't have access to them at the moment:

"a" suffix:

 

[Telperion]

"b" suffix:

 

[biggymu]

Here is my b suffix.

 

[bruce98k]

I have attached two images of parts from an early 1933 Banner K rifle manufactured at Mauser Oberndorf.
One is a sight ramp and the other is an underside view of the bolt sleeve. The tell on these images is the small
Gothic 'm' stamped on the parts, indicating that the part was manufactured at Oberndorf. Jon Speed has been
aware of this mark for some time but it had no major implications other than the fact that it localized the component
to the main Mauser factory.

With the whole story of the S28 (BKIW) rifles being incomplete, we know can begin filling in some of the blanks.

If you look at some of the images from some of the S28 rifles posted, you can clearly see this small 'M' marked on the
rear sight base and just behind the recoil lug of the receiver.

Ok, now for the questions.

1. How was the manufacture of components distributed by the following companies: surplus DWM components (early), Mauser, BKIW, and last the Simson company.
2. We can assume that the point of assembly was in Karlsruhe at the BKIW facility but was it strictly an assembly point, or were components manufactured there as well
3. Where did the stocks come from?
4. How much was Mauser Oberndorf involved (knowing that major components were being transferred from Mauser to BKIW)?
5. Why are there Simson inspection stamps (E/6) on rear sight bases supplied by Oberndorf.

Look forward to further discussion on this topic.

 

[PrayingMantis]

S28 1714b

 

[PrayingMantis]

S28 9848

 

[PrayingMantis]

I checked my WWI and earlier WMOs, they mostly have Ys and Bs on the receiver, triggerguard, and recoil lug. But i have seen the M on armorers parts sent to the Ottomans, and on the triggerguard of my 1917 marked but likely postwar assembled commercial WMO.

 

[bruce98k]

Receiver was supplied by Oberndorf for sure.

 

[chrisftk]

Receiver was supplied by Oberndorf for sure.

I'd be very curious if the non "m" receivers are old unmarked DWM surplus or BKIW. Since they were "in house", maybe there was no need to designate. Just a guess, but it would stand to reason third party receivers from Simson might have a similar indicator to the "M"?

Just spitballing here.

 

[PrayingMantis]

1714b has an e/6 hardening acceptance but also a WMO M, so it makes me wonder about the relationship between the two. If Simson took unfinished parts from WMO, did they finish them before sending them to Karlsruhe? Would be similar to their relationship with Dresden at the end of WWI.

 

[bruce98k]

That would be my assumption on the rear sight bases.
Mauser made the base and for some reason, it was sent to Simson for final inspection.
My guess it was part of the covert activity going on with the production of the S28 rifles.

The direction flipped when Mauser began production of the Banner K series of rifles.
In the early phases of production Mauser used numbers of front and rear bands, bolt bodies and bolt shrouds.
All were marked 'S28'. DWM must have transferred all the surplus components back to Mauser.

The whole situation regarding Mauser and DWM is fairly chaotic in the 1924 to 1933 period.
Jon Speed did check the Mauser financial records and there is activity between Karlsruhe and the factory in Oberndorf.

More to follow.

 

[Loewe]

I really think no production was continued between 1919 and 1924, - between Versailles and Dawes (1924), which began a period of stability that allowed some normality (though this, Dawes plan, was just kicking a can down the road... and would be paid for with interest in instability and the rise of national socialism); further I think there is too little that can be discerned from surviving trends (surviving examples - of the three Oberspree/19's known only one is detailed and it has a barrel f/p next to serial and that doesn't seem to start with Simson until 1925 (early a-block) - these provoke more questions than answers...).

I think the S28's came later, well after Simson's start, probably 1926-1930 and these Oberspree S28's (Oberspree & DWM's 1917's, 1918's and 1919's which share many similarities with normal S28's that progress in features as serial advances) probably 1927 at the earliest as even HZa Zeithan start in 1924 seems to have been curtailed until 1926 in anticipation of progress of Stresemann at Locarno; ultimately the historical context can only be explained by documents Jon Speed may have, or some other German researcher who labors through archives in Germany, but I think it is probable Simson began production before and the S28's (the patterns of which vary but are progressive in features that are identifiable in trends) and Zeithan was the only real "partner" until 1927 as although DWM and WMO was quite capable of them earlier, the reality is rifle production was not a priority before the 1930's as ammunition was in short supply and Germany under Stresemann was committed to peaceful revision of Versailles.

BTW, Zeithan's from 1924 seem to have been under 2000, very rare, I think it was much like Simson in that no barrel f/p next to serial, - but only two "seem" to have or show this feature, these were used!

 

[bruce98k]

I am revisiting this thread due to a new document uncovered by Jon.
It shows delivery of 15,000 rifles under the header "Gew. 7.9mm Mod. 1928".

Entry is from May 1930.

Another data point in the S28 puzzle.

 

[mrfarb]

Interesting document and date. Does this solidify that S28 pattern rifles follow the end of Simson production?