Romanian VZ24 Germanized

[Stan]

A rifle like this will probably have more questions than answers. I still like it though!

 

[flynaked]

Andy, please explain why you believe the barrel is wrong on the second rifle. It would be very surprising if there was an issue with it, I think I might even still have the $350 pawnshop receipt for it.

 

[Stan]

I didn't see anybody respond to your sling question. It looks like an original Czech pattern VZ24 sling that most likely would have been the same type supplied to Romania with their VZ24's. Originals getting hard to find with those!

 

[pzjgr]

Some interesting similarities between all three rifles.

All 3 are duffle cut, non-imports, all three crested, all three have front band numbered, all three have some VZ-23 parts in the mix, 2 have German marked replacement barrels, 2 have stock serial sanded off, then renumbered to match, none of the three have depot markings...although all three are clearly re-works...

I agree with Clay, the barrel on the one we found isn't some bubba job, and it was pretty thoroughly hashed out back when I first posted it...

 

[AndyB]

Certainly would be helpfull to see dissasembled barell marking under wood, on the presented rifle, personally i dont like the using of Vz23 buttstock on so late period, but i could not close it out certainly. On second rifle that was mentioned i have already written there some points, there is more time eagle and fireproofed barell with what i assumed a problematic stamp.
Romanian was ally of Germans prior 1944, hard to believe they made similar refurbishment in late of 1944 with older VZ23 parts. for me there are time problem there. These romanian rifles were new made 1940/41. Similar rifle is not problem to made, with some serialing and some mixed parts, the rings were not correctly serialed even here. But maybe i am wrong, but i would like to see the join of receiver to barell, same as the sight side panels and barell marking, thats all.

 

[joryfreeburg]

The front band on my rifle is stuck… I will try again this evening to get it loose so we can see what the action/barrel looks like out of the wood

 

[Stan]

Interesting that a number of Romanian crested VZ24's seem to have made it into the German depot system for rework. They would seem to be later reworks, but as mentioned, hard to see that VZ23 stocks and other bits would still be available that late. I've seen a few earlier VZ24's that seem to have gotten 23 stocks and lower band added, presumably while still in Czech service. Perhaps the Germans obtained some older VZ23 spare parts from the Czechs that didn't get used till later on? The stock s/n on left buttstock seems to point to possible replacement by Romania since it's lacking the prefix. I have a Romanian AR block s/n VZ24 with a stock s/n lacking the prefix and a replacement barrel with banded front sight base that is devoid of markings. I always assumed those to be Romanian refurb parts. Again, more questions than definitive answers.

 

[RyanE]

I don't know that anyone is suggesting that the vz23 stock or other parts on this rifle are original to the gun. The Germans clearly worked on it and probably replaced the stock, bands, etc during the repair.

 

[Warrior1354]

The front band on my rifle is stuck… I will try again this evening to get it loose so we can see what the action/barrel looks like out of the wood

Careful if you try to remove the handguard. Very fragile and easy to crack. Seen it happen on many vz23 and vz24 rifles.

 

[joryfreeburg]

Ok guys here are the money shots and the information that I could dig up for you on this unique rifle. It was really tough to get apart, the barrel channel and barreled action had a ton of old dried up cosmoline in them. The barrel looks to be original that was set in the action by BRNO. The hand guard has 4888-45 pencilled into the channel and has no visible inspection mark like Ryan’s example. The stock has 5219 penciled in the channel in two different spots. But on the outside I believe was sanded and the matching numbers to the action and bolt stamped in on the outside along with the installation of the bolt takedown disc. Another item of note, the stub end of the duffel cut was shimmed up with wood at one point to allow everything to fit together in a good manner again. I am interested to hear any new thoughts on this rifle or the other 2 examples……

 

[pzjgr]

This is just my opinion after doing a bunch of research and discussion on the one we found. I think they are all good...

It's been postulated that perhaps these were picked up sometime after the Romanian collapse at Stalingrad, who knows where or when...I am sure there were lots of Romanian weapons lying around for the German to salvage, and of course Romania switched sides in 44. So it makes sense the Germans may have picked up a bunch of Romanian weapons at various places in various states of condition. Of course, since the Germans had control of Brunn I and II, and the other Czech weapons plants, they had parts to re-furb/re-work the rifles. German marked barrels...they had German marked VZ-24 barrels from G24(t) production.

Its interesting to compare these three rifles, as there are quite a few similarities...I see nothing on any of them to point to post war bubba-ing.

I don't pretend to have any answers, just some thoughts...maybe we could scare some more similar rifles out of the woodwork to study and compare...only through continued observation and thoughtful hypothesizing that any sort of solid theory can be formulated. Look how much has been learned about 98k's since Law, a lot of it by dedicated research by people inhabiting this forum. Everything starts with a single step...

 

[AndyB]

Thanks for adding the details, this only means the barell and receiver are complete from romanian contract. I personally believe when its a german change so it was realised by regiment armorer and the VZ23 buttstock was already changed for different rifle in previous date, for this speaks that not all fittings were serialed, the assembly numbers inside are different. I dont known what is on disc plate but could be En and proof? or other stamp. Anyway this was reserialed by armorer when period not by HZA depot. Other points is the bolt here is from other place produced romanian rifle.
to comments of pzjgr Brno and Povazska Bystrica stopped production of VZ24 in 1942, since that date were switched to Kar98k production, so not any parts since 1943 could be delivered. Germans didnt have any barells from romanian production. There were some spare parts deliveries which ended by start of german rifle production.

 

[pzjgr]

Mmmm, considering the Germans had thousands of VZ24's and G24 (t)'s in the inventory, I am sure they just didn't chuck all the remaining spares into a dumpster after 1942, they would need parts to support the various 24s in the inventory, so finding replacement barrels in 1943/44 probably wasn't difficult...

 

[flynaked]

The depot system is known for hoarding parts, not only new parts but salvaged parts as well. Look at the amount of ww1 era parts used in both repairs as well as fresh depot builds all the way through the end of the war.

 

[Stan]

So do you guys believe the stock numbered were German depot applied? The stock was sanded and numbers reapplied to match the receiver and bolt and renumbered front band?

I was wondering about that as well. Is your stock also numbered on the bottom edge in German fashion like Jordan's example? I was wondering if the VZ23 stock could have been added while in Romanian service and renumbered on the left side as that was their normal pattern. Did the German depots add numbers on the left butt stock as well? Obviously later modified again by the Germans with the stock disc.

 

[Warrior1354]

Yeah my other vz24 German rework has a few Imperial recycled parts such as the follower numbered to match, and the stock crossbolt. I need to get it posted here in a separate thread. It's an interesting rifle, and very nice. The more you look at these some how they're all different. They're all unique, and if you decide to collect these in different variations. You could literally build a collection alone with just vz23 and vz24 reworks!

 

[AndyB]

Romanians never got any Vz23 and the older part rifles VZ23 were already in 1939/40 reworked by germans. So here when period is not a standart HZA rework, when done so on lower lever by smaller unit and by using of older Vz23/24 mixing part rifles.

 

[Stan]

That makes sense Andy. I think I was thrown a bit by the way the stock was renumbered on the left side, which is unlike most German reworks. Seems there are no cut and dry rules with VZ24 reworks though!

 

[Pat]

...So here when period is not a standart HZA rework, when done so on lower lever by smaller unit ...

I think several people get confused (or maybe just skeptical) about this. Alot of collectors will just assume that a rework MUST have a depot stamp, or it's suspect. Like alot of people here, I own and have owned many examples that lack depot stamps, but have undeniable German rework indicators. Transporting a rifle to a fixed, known depot takes it out of use by the warfighter, which is why in my opinion mobile repair teams played such an important role.

 

[pzjgr]

I think several people get confused (or maybe just skeptical) about this. Alot of collectors will just assume that a rework MUST have a depot stamp, or it's suspect. Like alot of people here, I own and have owned many examples that lack depot stamps, but have undeniable German rework indicators. Transporting a rifle to a fixed, known depot takes it out of use by the warfighter, which is why in my opinion mobile repair teams played such an important

But wouldn't a re-work that included re-barreling be required to be done at Depot level or above?