Rare Königberg depot build rifle

[mrfarb]

Thank you for your attention.

I will ask some other gun collectors, if this marking could be found on another german arms. Maybe there is anything written, just for another gun model.

Best regards,

Georg

Your thoughts make perfect sense - barrels were only replaced at the larger depots (field replacements were forbidden) and making the chamber short would make perfect sense, as head space would need to be set after assembly, making a short chamber necessary. That would also explain the 0,3 marking. I always realized the 0,2 was written as a measurement (like the 7,92 marking) but never put the two together as I'm not a gunsmith.

 

[heavy_mech]

That makes perfect sense and they could gauge this easily when they 'finished' the chamber and mark them appropriately. 0.2mm short or 0.3mm short.

 

[Schlamspringer]

Hallo,

thanks for response, it is just a theory and I haven´t very strong evidences for, only indicies.

Please note the picture, it is the boltpin of a P08. It is a Ü 0,05 mm (Ü = Übermaß = oversize) marked replacement part for repairing damaged/worn out fittings. I think it is from imperial era, but it shows that replacement parts are marked with size markings, if they are non standard.

Best regards, viele Grüße,

Georg

 

[Hambone]

That makes much sense. It would seem that .02 oversize standard would allow enough chamber reaming / indexing to fit as a spare. You can't add material to a barrel for headspace, but you certainly can ream and take more off. It would also make sense to mark such barrels accordingly, to distinguish them for this purpose and to indicate as much to the armorer / waffenmeister assembling the piece.

Great rifle Farb.

 

[mrfarb]

Do we have a gunsmith here that might know for sure how to head space a new barrel install? What if the shoulder is oversize 0,2 instead of the chamber being undersized?

 

[heavy_mech]

Really you don't want to be working the shoulder IMHO. This involves lathe work to do it correctly... however as seen on falfiles guys do it with a grit disc meant for a large grinder. The short chamber option allows for 'simple' finish reaming which can easily be done by hand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y54CcDri44

 

[nirvana]

I agree. Short chamber is better than long shoulder.

 

[Schlamspringer]

Hallo,

there is anoter theory for the "0,2", which sounds possible too:

It is the Headspace after installing the new Barrel. I was told the Headspace of 0,2 mm is Standard für K98k, 0,3 mm is the upper Borderline.

A tighter Headspace is possible, bud may reduce the compability with available ammo ... not a good idea.

I will try to check this theory, maybe there is something written in this case.

Viele Grüße, best regards,

Georg

 

[jbmauser]

I'm not a professional gunsmith but I've built several hunting rifles on M98 actions using pre-threaded, short chambered barrels. It's the easiest method if you don't have a lathe. The US manufactured short chambered barrels I've bought are usually cut with the chamber about .050" (1.27mm) short to allow for variances in receivers and bolts. When fitting a barrel to a M98 action the distance between the inner and outer shoulders is important as well. You can fit a barrel to torque just on the inner or just on the outer shoulder but ideally there should be about a .0015" crush fit with the inner shoulder contacting first then the outer. This fit can be adjusted by removing a small amount from the face of the receiver (usually trued up when doing a build any way) and/or either shoulder of the barrel.

You can also buy pre-threaded, fully finished chambered barrels where proper headspace is achieved by adjusting the thread length and shoulder depths with a lathe. This method would require you to remove amounts from the inner shoulder and outer shoulder until the barrel threads in far enough to headspace properly. I'm not sure what dimensions these barrels are supplied over length but I would assume somewhere in that .050" range as well.

I think the 0.2mm marking denoting a short chambered barrel is a good one except that .2mm translates into about .008" which doesn't leave a whole lot or room for adjustment. That being said we all know you can swap German K98k bolts from one rifle to the other and still have good headspace almost every time. Maybe that .2mm was enough given the machining tolerances everything was held to. I think the generous amount given for adjustment by after market barrels might be there to compensate for the vast variety of M98 actions and bolts out there from any number of makers over the last 120 years or so.

 

[mrfarb]

That's why I ask, I am not a gunsmith and wanted to make sure. So it seems to be standard procedure to leave the chamber short, so this is another bit of evidence as to what the marking indicated.

 

[heavy_mech]

I'm not a professional gunsmith but I've built he barrel threads in far enough to headspace properly. I'm not sure what dimensions these barrels are supplied over length but I would assume somewhere in that .050" range as well.. I think the generous amount given for adjustment by after market barrels might be there to compensate for the vast variety of M98 actions and bolts out there from any number of makers over the last 120 years or so

Me either, but I've done one so far. Green mountain .338-06 finished blank on a 1916 Amberg. Mine was .050 short as well. Agree with the massive variety of possible receivers and maximum flexibility.

..I think the 0.2mm marking denoting a short chambered barrel is a good one except that .2mm translates into about .008" which doesn't leave a whole lot or room for adjustment. That being said we all know you can swap German K98k bolts from one rifle to the other and still have good headspace almost every time. Maybe that .2mm was enough given the machining tolerances everything was held to. .

I thought about this same thing and tend to agree with this. I think this would allow for fitting with the least amount of work (finish reaming) which would be being done by hand in the field. Removing 50 thou with a hand reamer is a LOT.

 

[heavy_mech]

..standard procedure to leave the chamber short, so this is another bit of evidence lee as to what the marking indicated.

I wonder if other 'sizes' exist? Having a few available aids in getting it right. It would seem easy enough if you had 2 or 3 available each a few thousands different.

Apples and oranges but a bit on topic. Russian AK barrel production and population. Rather than going for exact, they were gauged and marked in 4 sizes to aid in ease of assembly and limit hand fitting. Easy to remove .002 or nothing instead of .025.

 

[mrfarb]

Well, with waffenamt inspection procedures of spare components there was very tight control over interchangeability, for lack of a better term, so that all parts would necessarily be the same.

 

[jbmauser]

Me either, but I've done one so far. Green mountain .338-06 finished blank on a 1916 Amberg. Mine was .050 short as well. Agree with the massive variety of possible receivers and maximum flexibility.

I thought about this same thing and tend to agree with this. I think this would allow for fitting with the least amount of work (finish reaming) which would be being done by hand in the field. Removing 50 thou with a hand reamer is a LOT.

.050 is a lot to remove by hand but I've done it several times with results far better than some commercial guns and "professional" gunsmiths. My chambers have always ended up super smooth and the guns all shoot sub MOA. Cleaning up .2mm would be easy for an armorer to do.

 

[heavy_mech]

.050 is a lot to remove by hand but I've done it several times with results far better than some commercial guns and "professional" gunsmiths. My chambers have always ended up super smooth and the guns all shoot sub MOA. Cleaning up .2mm would be easy for an armorer to do.

Yes sir. Reality would call for a roughing reamer and then a finish reamer. However going slow with lots of chip clearing and lube will get it done but it takes a long time. I would not want to do it again. 8 or 12 thou is a few turns with a finish reamer, even with just a bit of lube. I think you hit the point exactly.

 

[mrfarb]

FYI, barrel replacement was not allowed to be done by field level armorers, only at the larger depots. Thanks to member 8x57IS we know that for sure from Army regulations.

 

[Schlamspringer]

... barrels were only replaced at the larger depots (field replacements were forbidden)...

Hallo,

as "mrfarb" wrote, the barrels have been changed in full equipped depots.... I thing there was no need to ream the chamber by hand.

Viele Grüße, best regards,

Georg

....sorry for doubling.

 

[heavy_mech]

Whatever the outcome of these discussions, thanks to Mike for sparking some most interesting debate, both here and in his 'odd' post. Great stuff!

 

[Stephan98k]

FYI, barrel replacement was not allowed to be done by field level armorers, only at the larger depots. Thanks to member 8x57IS we know that for sure from Army regulations.

Yes, barrel replacement was not allowed to be done by field level armorers, only at the full equipped depots.

Also to ream the chamber was not allowed to be done by field level armorers. As example some of the captured Yugoslavian rifle (j) caused trouble when German ammunition (brass and steel case) was used. After the shot the rifles had a sticky bolt and the reason was a to tight headspace. The troops had to send the rifles to a HZa weapon workshop and there the chamber got reamed. In case of the rifles (j), the HZa Königsberg, Spandau, Ingolstadt and Hannover was responsible to do it.

 

[Schlamspringer]

Do we have a gunsmith here that might know for sure how to head space a new barrel install? What if the shoulder is oversize 0,2 instead of the chamber being undersized?

Hallo,

I asked a "Old school" gunsmith (educated in Suhl) today. He told me that replacement barrels are regular delivered with undersize chambers. After installing the barrel, the chamber had to be reamed for correct headspace. This was very common in Germany in the past, and still quite common today. The "0,2" marking itself didn`t say him anything, this marking is not used the last dekades.

Viele Grüße, best regards,

Georg